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Is Trammel over Whitaker inappropriate? Is it racist?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

    It's because they weren't racist
    Was Al Campanis racist?

    How about Marge Schott?

    Ben Chapman?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

      Robert Byrd was a Democrat, so all racists are Democrats. He's only been gone 8 years.
      Can you come up with one who is alive now?

      One white guy who is racist against blacks and is a democrat who is alive?
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      • #63
        Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

        Was Al Campanis racist?

        How about Marge Schott?

        Ben Chapman?
        So what does that mean

        3 people are racist?

        it has nothing to do with the awards voting in the 50s and 60s/

        I'm not sure where you are going. You keep bringing up people who are racist. I counter with others who are racist. Some are , some aren't.

        It doesn't prove the HOF conspiracy that you seem to be advocating.
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        • #64
          Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

          Can you come up with one who is alive now?

          One white guy who is racist against blacks and is a democrat who is alive?
          Jesee Jackon
          Al Sharpton

          They are Democrats and are racist, though black
          Any democrat police officer, who is in the Union.

          so your half dozen people means that every racist is a Republican? That's preposterous, but not not inconsistant for a stereotyping east coast liberal.
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          • #65
            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

            Jesee Jackon
            Al Sharpton

            They are Democrats and are racist, though black
            Any democrat police officer, who is in the Union.

            so your half dozen people means that every racist is a Republican? That's preposterous, but not not inconsistant for a stereotyping east coast liberal.
            Where do you get that everyone in the police union is a democrat? The police union supported Trump in the last election.

            Can we just get one name of a white person who is racist against blacks and is a living democrat?



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            • #66
              Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
              east coast liberal.
              Midwest rube.

              .


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              • #67
                The political wrangling and name calling will end NOW. If that means some people have to step away for a few hours (or days) and cool off before engaging in civil discourse that's on topic, then you'd be wise to do so voluntarily. If the petty nastiness and off-topic politicking continues, there may be some involuntary time outs issued.

                Please gentlemen, you're better than this. Let's all behave like we're capable of.
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                • #68
                  By the way, brett, I appreciated your explanation. We're good, brother.

                  Addressing the real question in the OP....while I think Trammell had a stronger case than Whitaker, it's not substantially stronger. Remember, too, that the BBWAA kept Trammell on the ballot for 15 years while Whitaker was one-and-done when he debuted on their ballot. There was certainly a difference of perception there and I think that has far more to do with their respective positions - Trammell's offense stood out at a tougher defensive position than Whitaker's - and Trammell's better peak (he should have won the 1987 AL MVP Award). The 2018 Modern Era ballot saw Trammell crack the ballot because he was still receiving support from the BBWAA when he fell off just a year or two earlier. On a crowded ballot, Whitaker had little shot given the composition of the screening committee and their tendency to continue promoting candidates who did well enough with the BBWAA. (Ted Simmons being the obvious recent exception to that last point.)

                  Even among us, how confident are we that Lou Whitaker belongs on a ballot of 10 individuals whose greatest contribution came from 1973-1987? He'd probably crack the ballot, but would even this group of fans give him one of their (max of) four precious votes in a mock election? Personally, I'll take Bobby Grich over Whitaker (just barely). That's certainly a factor in the difference also. Alan Trammell, in my mind, was the best shortstop outside the Hall of Fame (not counting players not yet eligible). Whitaker and Grich are a virtual tie and both come from the same era (as does Willie Randolph, who is a not-too-distant third on that list).
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                    It's because they weren't racist
                    and or the vast majority of the top players were African American. Did any white players win when they clearly weren’t the best players? What about black players?
                    Just saying there is more than one possible explanation.
                    Last edited by brett; 06-15-2018, 05:00 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by brett View Post

                      Did any white players win when they clearly weren’t the best players?
                      Not sure about that, but I was at the final game in 1984 when the home fans at Yankee Stadium were booing Winfield and cheering Mattingly when the batting title came down to the last AB of the season for each of them.

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                      • #71
                        Not that anyone asked for MY two cents, but bringing up the "R" word does not imply an opinion one way or another. It acknowledges that it's a viable possibility that some might be of that opinion.

                        I understand admins wanting to keep the discussion on track (and support that aim) but I think it's a perfectly valid thing to bring up.

                        In a world where the likes of Richard Spencer get considerable media attention, it would be naive to think racism is a thing of the past, and anyone suggesting that it is would be MUCH more likely to offend me than someone merely asking a question...
                        Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                          Not sure about that, but I was at the final game in 1984 when the home fans at Yankee Stadium were booing Winfield and cheering Mattingly when the batting title came down to the last AB of the season for each of them.
                          Oh, yea I remember that when George Brett won in 1976, and beat Carew and McRae, one of the players on the opposing team for the last series said something about looking for a chance to let one of George's touch down because he was tired of black players winning the batting title every year. https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...mp_Controversy

                          Though this source does not mention the player saying anything about being tired of

                          https://www.royalsreview.com/2010/2/...d-the-disputed

                          Anyway my dad was quite a conservative but he believed that it was intentional.

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                          • #73
                            Old dudes woke up today throwing that hot sauce.

                            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post

                            Can you come up with one who is alive now?

                            One white guy who is racist against blacks and is a democrat who is alive?
                            You didn't find any with you sub conscious racist detecting abilities?
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                            • #74
                              So Trammell got in and Whitaker didn't , so what? Why does it have to be racist? Were they on the ballot against each other?

                              Perez and Cepeda are exteeeeeeeeemly marginal HOFers and they are minorities. How did that happen? Aren't the voters racist? . How did 2 super marginal minorities get in?


                              Oh, yea I remember that when George Brett won in 1976, and beat Carew and McRae, one of the players on the opposing team for the last series said something about looking for a chance to let one of George's touch down because he was tired of black players winning the batting title every year.
                              so one guy was a racist, now everyone is?

                              Not sure about that, but I was at the final game in 1984 when the home fans at Yankee Stadium were booing Winfield and cheering Mattingly when the batting title came down to the last AB of the season for each of them.
                              Maybe they didn't like someone who beat someone's face to a pulp, because they lost a basketball game.

                              https://www.si.com/vault/1972/02/07/...in-minneapolis



                              Last edited by JR Hart; 06-15-2018, 11:21 PM.
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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                                so one guy was a racist, now everyone is?
                                Many thousands of home team fans booed Winfield and Cheered Mattingly in the last game of 1984, I was there. It was clearly white fans rooting for the clean cut white guy over the scary big mean black man.

                                .


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