Is Trammel over Whitaker inappropriate? Is it racist?

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  • brett
    Registered User
    • Jul 2006
    • 13897

    Is Trammel over Whitaker inappropriate? Is it racist?

    What are the cases for Trammel over Whitaker. Are they fair? The only thing I can think of regarding Trammel is that he may have been the best player in the AL in 1987. I was also a little surprised that Whitaker only got MVP votes once and made 5 all star teams while Trammel got votes 7 times and made 6 all star games.

    Whitaker played more games, had a higher OPS+, slugging percentage and on-base percentage,
  • PVNICK
    Registered User
    • Jul 2007
    • 13674

    #2
    Trammell peaked higher. Whitaker had a lot of his best rate seasons at the end of his career when he was playing under 140 games a year and may have been platooning.

    Comment

    • willshad
      Registered User
      • Jan 2000
      • 12902

      #3
      Yeah, Trammell was less consistent, but he has 6 or 7 great years scattered about, while Lou had maybe 2 great years. The hitting standards for shortstop are a bit less than for second basemen. WAR tells the story pretty well.
      6 WAR seasons: Whitaker 2, Trammell 6
      3.5 WAR seasons: Whitaker 15, Trammell 11

      Whitaker was good player for a long time, Trammell was an occassional star.

      Comment

      • Jar of Flies
        Don't Follow
        • Jan 2006
        • 10754

        #4
        It's a battle for sure, Tom Thress has Trammell edging Whitaker in his key stat, the basic version calls for a 229.8 to 216.4 gap:


        Valuation of defense one way or the other should tip the scales to either guy.

        Both benefit a bit by Tiger Stadium from an rrOPS+ perspective, Trammell losing ~2 wins and Whitaker ~3.5
        Contextually, Whitaker takes a leap forward with RE24 wins/clutch (+7.24 and +4.30) compared with Trammell (+1.42 and +1.20).

        PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HOF, get Lou Whitaker into the hall of fame while he can enjoy it!!!
        Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
        http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

        Comment

        • JR Hart
          2010, 2012, 2014
          • May 2012
          • 12291

          #5
          Racism is the boy who called wolf. When it really does exist, people don't see it, because they are numb to it being used as a reason for virtually everything.

          I really don't know if it is the case here, but it seems unlikely. Both should have been in years ago. Shortstop is more of a glamour position and VC elections now are a long process. hopefully Sweet Lou will get in soon.
          This week's Giant

          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

          Comment

          • Los Bravos
            Keep swinging
            • Oct 2006
            • 9848

            #6
            It's definitely difficult to rationalize having one and not the other.
            3 6 10 21 25 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

            Comment

            • Chadwick
              Chasing Cooperstown
              • Sep 2002
              • 16797

              #7
              It is odd, at best, that you mention racism as a possible reason in the thread title, but don't elaborate (much less suggest a need for the question at all) in the OP. More poignantly, the suggestion is as offensive as it is absurd unless you have some evidence that might point towards that as a remotely plausible explanation. So far the proof you've provided is a big fat zero and all we have to go on is that one particular inductee (Trammell) is white while one particular candidate (Whitaker) is black. It would be just as ridiculous to suggest that Vladimir Guerrero was elected, but not Larry Walker for the same reason. Where's the correlation between their election status and skin color? If one existed, that would be on you to prove before tossing such an incendiary charge out there.
              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

              Comment

              • brett
                Registered User
                • Jul 2006
                • 13897

                #8
                Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                It is odd, at best, that you mention racism as a possible reason in the thread title, but don't elaborate (much less suggest a need for the question at all) in the OP. More poignantly, the suggestion is as offensive as it is absurd unless you have some evidence that might point towards that as a remotely plausible explanation. So far the proof you've provided is a big fat zero and all we have to go on is that one particular inductee (Trammell) is white while one particular candidate (Whitaker) is black. It would be just as ridiculous to suggest that Vladimir Guerrero was elected, but not Larry Walker for the same reason. Where's the correlation between their election status and skin color? If one existed, that would be on you to prove before tossing such an incendiary charge out there.
                I hesitated to include that, but I had friends who contended that it was "racist" and so I wanted to get opinions without prejudicing peoples answers by giving my opinion. I personally feel that accusations of racism are greatly overused and tend to dismiss them. I can't think of any other instance where I believe that a black player didn't get into the hall of fame versus a highly comparable white player who did.

                However it is not exactly the same as Guerrero versus Walker. They were exact contemporaries on the same team, they rank almost exactly the same place on many members rankings by position, and Whitaker had more games, a better on-base percentage, slugging percentage, more home runs, more WAR and a higher OPS+ and Whitaker was one and done in his original time on the ballot despite being probably the best second baseman in the AL in a 20 year period, and maybe the best in baseball for a decade, while Trammell could never make that claim at shortstop.

                In reality I just woke up with the prior conversation I had had in my mind and started typing while my morning coffee was kicking in. I see I spelled Trammell wrong in a couple of spots. Why does my spellcheck say that Trammel is no misspelled (but Trammell is?) Edit: Apparently trammel is a real word or two.

                I guess (ironic to my thread title) a better comparison would be to ask about Trammell versus someone like Buddy Bell who had a virtually identical career in terms of stats, relative stats, peak and dominance at his position (As Bell and Trammell really have no case as the best in baseball for any extended period of time). And a better comp contrast for Whitaker might be Larkin who had somewhat of a fragmented career.
                Last edited by brett; 06-14-2018, 07:18 PM.

                Comment

                • jjpm74
                  • Jan 2008
                  • 19316

                  #9
                  Both Trammel and Whitaker should have been in long ago. Racism does not play a role here. Historically, the HOF has been very bad at identifying the best second basemen. Also not in are Bobby Grich, Ross Barnes and WIllie Randolph. Struggling is Jeff Kent. Ryne Sandberg, an all time great struggled to get in. Alomar did not get in on the 1st ballot. Several second basemen got in via the VC.

                  Comment

                  • JR Hart
                    2010, 2012, 2014
                    • May 2012
                    • 12291

                    #10
                    Originally posted by brett View Post

                    I hesitated to include that, but I had friends who contended that it was "racist" and so I wanted to get opinions without prejudicing peoples answers by giving my opinion. I personally feel that accusations of racism are greatly overused and tend to dismiss them. I can't think of any other instance where I believe that a black player didn't get into the hall of fame versus a highly comparable white player who did.
                    .
                    Oh come on

                    This is just so far off the track.
                    One is white and one is black, so your friends cried "racism?'

                    This week's Giant

                    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                    Comment

                    • brett
                      Registered User
                      • Jul 2006
                      • 13897

                      #11
                      Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                      Oh come on

                      This is just so far off the track.
                      One is white and one is black, so your friends cried "racism?'
                      I was going to post simply whether there was justification to put in Trammell but not Whitaker as well as ask whether there had been a thread on that before. When I woke up I just added in the "is it racist" part because I had recently been told that is was and had not thought of it before and wondered if that was something that was "going around" that I was out of the loop on.

                      And again, its not just one is white and one is black. They share a lot in common and Whitaker comes out ahead on many traditional and sabermetric stats including:

                      Hits
                      HR
                      Runs scored
                      RBI
                      Slugging
                      On base%
                      WAR
                      OPS+
                      Last edited by brett; 06-14-2018, 08:09 PM.

                      Comment

                      • dwj21792
                        Registered User
                        • May 2017
                        • 5514

                        #12
                        I hate whenever a black man gets a bum rap, some people insist on playing the race card. You see it in politics. You see it in sports. I suggest that even racism still exists, unfortunately, it is nonsense to suggest that everything that goes wrong for an African American is due to racism. The reason may have nothing at all to do with his race.
                        That said, I find it unfortunate that Whitaker is not going in the HOF this year along with his two teammates, particularly the man with whom he has been forever linked. But does race have anything to do with the fact he is not? I don't know, but I would need to see some concrete evidence before I start believing it.
                        27 World Championships
                        22 retired numbers
                        Isn't it great to be a Yankee fan?
                        Baseball was, is, and always will be to me the best sport-Babe Ruth

                        Comment

                        • bluesky5
                          Registered User
                          • May 2011
                          • 20184

                          #13
                          We as in white people? Why would any other race be any different?

                          Yea all that stuff sucks dude but that doesn't mean you should be applying those traits to all white people.
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment

                          • JR Hart
                            2010, 2012, 2014
                            • May 2012
                            • 12291

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ol' aches and pains

                            I agree with your posts about as often as there's a solar eclipse, but this is one of those times.

                            Just to put it in a baseball context, I remember watching the 1983 ALCS between Baltimore and the Chicago White Sox. At one point during a game, there was a brief snippet of an interview with the Orioles' Tito Landrum. Immediately thereafter, Al Michaels made a reference to "the well-spoken Tito Landrum", as if he was surprised an African American player could speak articulately. I can't imagine hearing that comment after an interview with a white player.
                            Or Al just thought that he was well spoken. I interview high scholl athletes on the radio. Some speak very well and some really struggle. I have commented to others how well spoken someone was and I never thought of race.
                            This week's Giant

                            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                            Comment

                            • brett
                              Registered User
                              • Jul 2006
                              • 13897

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ol' aches and pains

                              I agree with your posts about as often as there's a solar eclipse, but this is one of those times.

                              Just to put it in a baseball context, I remember watching the 1983 ALCS between Baltimore and the Chicago White Sox. At one point during a game, there was a brief snippet of an interview with the Orioles' Tito Landrum. Immediately thereafter, Al Michaels made a reference to "the well-spoken Tito Landrum", as if he was surprised an African American player could speak articulately. I can't imagine hearing that comment after an interview with a white player.
                              First off, that's is 35 years ago. It still happens today, but it it is not like Michaels valued him less. I would say that this is a pervasive racial ignorance and dysfunction.

                              At this point in my life I have moved from the inner city to a middle class suburb. About 6 months ago I saw someone take a package from my front door right after it had been delivered. I walked out my front door, looked down each street-3 directions and saw a woman walking away and getting into a car that was idling in the street. I walked up to her and asked her if she had seen anything suspicious. At that point her husband came out the front door and he accused me of interrogating his wife because I was racist. Only then, I realized that he was hispanic or middle eastern. I'll add that I grew up in an 80% hispanic neighborhood and would never have had anyone suggest that.

                              Comment

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