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Jesse Orosco,John Franco, Lee Smith

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  • Jesse Orosco,John Franco, Lee Smith

    Just wondering why no mention ever of Orosco for HOF?

    He pitched in the most games ever and his ERA+ is 126.

    If he doesn't get totally lit up at age FORTY SIX, his ERA+ would have been 131.

    he was some pretty solid numbers for a guy, who pitched the most games ever.

    Franco should be a no brainer, 3rd in games pitched 138 ERA+

    Lee Smith 1022 games 132 ERA+

    These guys look like HOFers to me



    thoughts?
    This week's Giant

    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

  • #2
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Just wondering why no mention ever of Orosco for HOF?

    He pitched in the most games ever and his ERA+ is 126.

    If he doesn't get totally lit up at age FORTY SIX, his ERA+ would have been 131.

    he was some pretty solid numbers for a guy, who pitched the most games ever.

    Franco should be a no brainer, 3rd in games pitched 138 ERA+

    Lee Smith 1022 games 132 ERA+

    These guys look like HOFers to me



    thoughts?
    Orosco, yes. Franco and Smith, not so much.

    Comment


    • #3
      For me, 2000 innings pitched is probably the minimum for someone to be considered for the HOF.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by willshad View Post
        For me, 2000 innings pitched is probably the minimum for someone to be considered for the HOF.
        But that's virtually impossible for relievers any more.
        This week's Giant

        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by willshad View Post
          For me, 2000 innings pitched is probably the minimum for someone to be considered for the HOF.
          Get Dizzy Dean out, and all of the relievers other than Wilhelm, and keep Rivera out!
          .


          19th Century League Champion
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          • #6
            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

            But that's virtually impossible for relievers any more.
            Their job is easy. It's not hard to go in for one inning and dominate. Give me, a non athlete, a week of practice and I could probably go in and get three outs without giving up a run the majority of the time. Doing it for a long time is slightly more impressive and shows longevity, but doing something easy for a long time is still not that great. You can only pack so much value to your team by pitching 50 or so out of 1400+ innings of the season.

            Relievers are already way overpaid and get too much credit. Let's not honor more of them.
            Last edited by willshad; 10-12-2018, 10:37 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by willshad View Post

              . Give me, a non athlete, a week of practice and I could probably go in and get three outs without giving up a run the majority of the time.
              Oh baloney

              What a ridiculous statement!!!! How can you even think that.

              Your ludicrous ramblings aside, relief pitching is becoming more and more important all of the time. It's a huge part of the game. For someone who hates WAR, you certainly are caught up in value. It looks hypocritical. Look at the Royals of 2014-15. Do you that bullpen wasn't critical to their success.

              BTW, no one is overpaid >>> ever. If someone writes the check, that is what one is worth.

              This week's Giant

              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by willshad View Post

                Give me, a non athlete, a week of practice and I could probably go in and get three outs without giving up a run the majority of the time.
                LOL, amazing!
                .


                19th Century League Champion
                1900s League Champion
                1910s League Champion

                1930s League Division Winner
                1950s League Champion
                1960 Strat-O-Matic League Regular Season Winner
                1960s League Division Winner
                1970s League Champion
                1971 Strat-O-Matic League Runner Up
                1980s League Champion
                All Time Greats League Champion

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by willshad View Post
                  Their job is easy. It's not hard to go in for one inning and dominate. Give me, a non athlete, a week of practice and I could probably go in and get three outs without giving up a run the majority of the time.
                  Jeez. And I thought my claim that I'm a better postseason pitcher than David Price was hyperbole.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                    Oh baloney

                    What a ridiculous statement!!!! How can you even think that.

                    Your ludicrous ramblings aside, relief pitching is becoming more and more important all of the time. It's a huge part of the game. For someone who hates WAR, you certainly are caught up in value. It looks hypocritical. Look at the Royals of 2014-15. Do you that bullpen wasn't critical to their success.

                    BTW, no one is overpaid >>> ever. If someone writes the check, that is what one is worth.
                    Relief PITCHING is important, not individual relievers. They are pretty interchangeable. Even when Rivera retired, the Yankees replaced him without missing a beat. They could just plug in a Chapman or a Betances, or a David Robertson or a Chad Green and they will be just about as effective. You basically have four or five guys doing the job of one or two guys, so none of them individually will be that valuable. it has nothing to do with WAR, just actual time of the field.

                    If they're that good, why don't they pitch more innings? Exactly.
                    Last edited by willshad; 10-12-2018, 01:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by willshad View Post

                      Relief PITCHING is important, not individual relievers. They are pretty interchangeable. Even when Rivera retired, the Yankees replaced him without missing a beat. They could just plug in a Chapman or a Betances, or a David Robertson or a Chad Green and they will be just about as effective. You basically have four or five guys doing the job of one or two guys, so none of them individually will be that valuable. it has nothing to do with WAR, just actual time of the field.

                      If they're that good, why don't they pitch more innings? Exactly.
                      Baseball has evolved to a game of specialists. Research has proved that fresh arms beat tired arms. These pitchers didn't choose to play in the era that they are in. We don't expect Pedro Martinez to have the workload of Cy Young. Why do we expect modern relievers to be Firpo Marberry? More relievers are needed, that is how the game is played. And every reliever isn't successful as you are implying. You are holding them to an unrealistic standard They are important.

                      99.99999999 percent of all pitchers don't make the big leagues. What makes you possibly think that you could.
                      This week's Giant

                      #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JR Hart View Post

                        Baseball has evolved to a game of specialists. Research has proved that fresh arms beat tired arms. These pitchers didn't choose to play in the era that they are in. We don't expect Pedro Martinez to have the workload of Cy Young. Why do we expect modern relievers to be Firpo Marberry? More relievers are needed, that is how the game is played. And every reliever isn't successful as you are implying. You are holding them to an unrealistic standard They are important.

                        99.99999999 percent of all pitchers don't make the big leagues. What makes you possibly think that you could.
                        Not every reliever is that successful, but the one's who aren't are quickly replaced by a guy who is. It's just not a difficult job. Just a quick glance at The Yankees relievers last year I saw Chapman, 93 Ks in 51 innings, 179 ERA+...Betances, 115Ks in 66 innings, 161 ERA+...Green, 94 Ks in 75 innings, 175 ERA+...Robertson, 91 Ks in 69 innings, 136 ERA+...etc etc. At least Pedro was pitching 200 or so innings per season. If it gets to the point where starters are getting 100 innings a year then that's different.

                        I agree, baseball has changed and relievers are used much more. I just don't feel that they do enough individually to justify HOF status.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by willshad View Post

                          Relief PITCHING is important, not individual relievers. They are pretty interchangeable. Even when Rivera retired, the Yankees replaced him without missing a beat. They could just plug in a Chapman or a Betances, or a David Robertson or a Chad Green and they will be just about as effective. You basically have four or five guys doing the job of one or two guys, so none of them individually will be that valuable. it has nothing to do with WAR, just actual time of the field.

                          If they're that good, why don't they pitch more innings? Exactly.
                          What Rivera did for the length of time he did it for has not been achieved before or since. He is almost universally viewed as one of the top 100 best pitchers of all time.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                            Just wondering why no mention ever of Orosco for HOF?

                            He pitched in the most games ever and his ERA+ is 126.

                            If he doesn't get totally lit up at age FORTY SIX, his ERA+ would have been 131.

                            he was some pretty solid numbers for a guy, who pitched the most games ever.

                            Franco should be a no brainer, 3rd in games pitched 138 ERA+

                            Lee Smith 1022 games 132 ERA+

                            These guys look like HOFers to me



                            thoughts?
                            Orosco pitched forever, but by the age of 31 was basically a setup man. He had a great career, but comes up short, IMO. John Franco getting elected would stretch the relievers out to 20 best all time. I'm not willing to stretch that far. Now that Trevor Hoffman has been elected, Lee Smith deserves to be there. He was more dominant than Hoffman. Outside of him, Wagner and Henke are next in line out of the non-hybrid/pioneering types.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                              What Rivera did for the length of time he did it for has not been achieved before or since. He is almost universally viewed as one of the top 100 best pitchers of all time.
                              I don't know...how does one compare a one inning guy to a starter?

                              Comment

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