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The Anti-Hall of Fame: Notably/Notoriously Bad Players...

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  • #91
    But the NBA is around for 50 years and between Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Bird, Magic and Jordan that must cover half the MVPs.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
      But the NBA is around for 50 years and between Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Bird, Magic and Jordan that must cover half the MVPs.
      More like 70 years.

      I think the fact that all MVPs are in Springfield is because they were all good enough to be in the Hall, not merely because they were MVP once or more. It's a correlation without causation.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Cougar View Post

        More like 70 years.

        I think the fact that all MVPs are in Springfield is because they were all good enough to be in the Hall, not merely because they were MVP once or more. It's a correlation without causation.
        We're also talking about a sport that has 12 players on each team vs. a sport that has 25-40 players on a team.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
          But the NBA is around for 50 years and between Russell, Chamberlain, Kareem, Bird, Magic and Jordan that must cover half the MVPs.
          Pretty much. 63 MVPs, 8 have 3 or more for a total of 33 MVP awards.

          6 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
          5 Bill Russell, Michael Jordan
          4 Wilt Chamberlain, LeBron James
          3 Moses Malone, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson

          Even the two-timers are also HOFers and future HOFers;
          Bob Pettitt, Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Stephen Curry

          The rest of the Honor Roll;
          Bob Cousy, Oscar Robertson, Wes Unseld, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, Bill Walton, Julius Erving, Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal,
          Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook and James Harden.
          NY Sports Day Independent Gotham Sports Coverage
          Mets360 Mets Past, Present and Future
          Talking Mets Baseball. A baseball blog with a Mets bias

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Cougar View Post

            More like 70 years.

            I think the fact that all MVPs are in Springfield is because they were all good enough to be in the Hall, not merely because they were MVP once or more. It's a correlation without causation.
            True, but to PRC's point, while there isn't an argument to be made against any multiple time NBA MVP winner, the fact that a player on the outside looking in has multiple MVPs is often used as a point towards the argument for that player being in the Hall.

            And for the record that list (including active players, players not yet on the ballot and players still on the ballot for various reasons) is:
            7 Barry Bonds, we know the drill
            3 Alex Rodriguez, again we know the drill
            3 Albert Pujols, still active
            2 Roger Maris, Dale Murphy, Juan Gonzalez
            That's the big three in terms of "why aren't these two-time MVP winners (and back-to-back in Murph and Maris' case) not in the Hall" debates.
            And finally;
            2 Miguel Cabrera, still active
            2 Mike Trout, still active

            That's 8 out of 32 multiple MVP award winners. Though on the "to be fair side", even there Hal Newhouser needed to get in via the Veterans Committee some 50 years after his feat, and Roy Campanella spent quite a few years on the writers ballot before his eventual induction. Everyone else though.

            But yeah, the remaining 21 players were no doubt first or second time ballot for silly reasons (i.e. not voting for Joe DiMaggio because you thought he might come out of retirement due to his young age at the time) HOFers.
            NY Sports Day Independent Gotham Sports Coverage
            Mets360 Mets Past, Present and Future
            Talking Mets Baseball. A baseball blog with a Mets bias

            Comment


            • #96
              Is there anybody from the early MVP days when you could only win once, who could have won twice with today's rules, but still isn't in the Hall?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                Is there anybody from the early MVP days when you could only win once, who could have won twice with today's rules, but still isn't in the Hall?
                Gavvy Cravath?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by willshad View Post

                  Gavvy Cravath?
                  Gavvy never won. He came in 2nd in 1913, probably should have won, had the best WAR among position players. Didn't ever come very close again.



                  Comment


                  • #99
                    FYI the ones from that time, Chalmers (1911-1914) and League (1922-1929), that aren’t in Cooperstown:

                    Frank Schulte Chalmers NL 1911
                    Larry Doyle Chalmers NL 1912
                    Jake Daubert Chalmers NL 1913
                    Roger Peckingpaugh AL 1925
                    George Burns AL 1926
                    Bob O’Farrell NL 1926

                    NY Sports Day Independent Gotham Sports Coverage
                    Mets360 Mets Past, Present and Future
                    Talking Mets Baseball. A baseball blog with a Mets bias

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cougar View Post

                      Gavvy never won. He came in 2nd in 1913, probably should have won, had the best WAR among position players. Didn't ever come very close again.


                      Well, there were two years he led in both HRs and RBIs. Historically we know that's an MVP indicator.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by dgarza View Post

                        Well, there were two years he led in both HRs and RBIs. Historically we know that's an MVP indicator.
                        In 1913 Cravath led the NL in HR & RBI, and was 2nd in BA. He missed a Triple Crown by .009 points.

                        Jake Daubert won the batting title with .350, and also won that year's MVP, despite otherwise relatively pedestrian production.

                        Cravath's Phillies finished in 2nd place, Daubert's Brooklyn team in 6th.

                        This one is a head scratcher.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cougar View Post

                          In 1913 Cravath led the NL in HR & RBI, and was 2nd in BA. He missed a Triple Crown by .009 points.

                          Jake Daubert won the batting title with .350, and also won that year's MVP, despite otherwise relatively pedestrian production.

                          Cravath's Phillies finished in 2nd place, Daubert's Brooklyn team in 6th.

                          This one is a head scratcher.
                          Fielding was valued much more highly then than now, and Daubert was one of the best defensive first basemen of his time, in addition to being one of the best hitters. He was compared to Hal Chase, but considered more dependable than the "erratic" Chase.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by RUKen View Post

                            Fielding was valued much more highly then than now, and Daubert was one of the best defensive first basemen of his time, in addition to being one of the best hitters. He was compared to Hal Chase, but considered more dependable than the "erratic" Chase.
                            He was up there, but Konetchy was the best defensive first baseman of that era. We will never know how great Chase could have been since he was notorious for throwing games and tanking plays. I think Daubert is second to Konetchy in almost every category for that era, making him a premiere defender in an era where first base and third base were more defense forward positions.

                            Comment


                            • Leaders in WAR Fielding Runs, 500+ games at 1B and 2500+ PA 1908-22:
                              Code:
                              Player         Rfld dWAR OPS+   PA From   To   Age
                              Wally Pipp     50.0  0.7  110 4885 1913 1922 20-29
                              Ed Konetchy    49.0 -2.5  123 8284 1908 1921 22-35
                              Chick Gandil   41.0  0.1  103 4713 1910 1919 22-31
                              Stuffy McInnis 38.0 -1.7  108 7043 1909 1922 18-31
                              George Stovall 34.0  0.6   90 3992 1908 1915 30-37
                              Dots Miller    32.0  2.0   96 6480 1909 1921 22-34
                              George Sisler  31.0 -0.9  155 4572 1915 1922 22-29
                              Jake Daubert   17.0 -5.8  120 7742 1910 1922 26-38
                              George Burns    6.0 -3.4  112 4011 1914 1922 21-29
                              Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                              Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                              Comment


                              • Alright, so just as a thought exercise, as I mentioned earlier about the NBA electing every MVP ever to the Hall, here's the full list of retired, not-on-current-ballot MVPs (inc. pre-MVP-proper guys) who aren't in the Hall but eligible (multiple-award-winners denoted):

                                Frank Schulte
                                Larry Doyle
                                Jake Daubert
                                Roger Peckinpaugh
                                Bob O'Farrell
                                George Burns
                                Bucky Walters
                                Frank McCormick
                                Dolph Camilli
                                Mort Cooper
                                Spud Chandler
                                Marty Marion
                                Phil Cavaretta
                                Bob Elliott
                                Jim Konstanty
                                Hank Sauer
                                Bobby Shantz
                                Al Rosen
                                Jackie Jensen
                                Dick Groat
                                Roger Maris (2)
                                Maury Wills
                                Elston Howard
                                Ken Boyer
                                Zoilo Versalles
                                Denny McLain
                                Boog Powell
                                Vida Blue
                                Dick Allen
                                Jeff Burroughs
                                Fred Lynn
                                Thurman Munson
                                George Foster
                                Dave Parker
                                Keith Hernandez
                                Don Baylor
                                Dale Murphy (2)
                                Willie Hernandez
                                Willie McGee
                                Don Mattingly
                                George Bell
                                Kirk Gibson
                                Jose Canseco
                                Kevin Mitchell
                                Terry Pendleton
                                Mo Vaughn
                                Ken Caminiti
                                Juan Gonzalez (2)
                                (of course Pete Rose is banned)

                                retired + waiting to get on HOF ballot
                                Jason Giambi
                                Ichiro Suzuki
                                Miguel Tejada
                                Alex Rodriguez (3)
                                Ryan Howard
                                Justin Morneau
                                Jimmy Rollins
                                Joe Mauer (as of today)
                                (Josh Hamilton would be here but he only played 9 years)

                                because obviously there are a LOT of absolute flat-out "no" players here, what percentage/amount of players would you be comfortable with giving a spot to? Who's your top 5 (or even 10, if it suits your fancy) "should-be" guys? (Don't include the "waiting" list.)

                                Comment

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