Announcement

Collapse

Updated Baseball Fever Policy

Baseball Fever Policy

I. Purpose of this announcement:

This announcement describes the policies pertaining to the operation of Baseball Fever.

Baseball Fever is a moderated baseball message board which encourages and facilitates research and information exchange among fans of our national pastime. The intent of the Baseball Fever Policy is to ensure that Baseball Fever remains an extremely high quality, extremely low "noise" environment.

Baseball Fever is administrated by three principal administrators:
webmaster - Baseball Fever Owner
The Commissioner - Baseball Fever Administrator
Macker - Baseball Fever Administrator

And a group of forum specific super moderators. The role of the moderator is to keep Baseball Fever smoothly and to screen posts for compliance with our policy. The moderators are ALL volunteer positions, so please be patient and understanding of any delays you might experience in correspondence.

II. Comments about our policy:

Any suggestions on this policy may be made directly to the webmaster.

III. Acknowledgments:

This document was based on a similar policy used by SABR.

IV. Requirements for participation on Baseball Fever:

Participation on Baseball Fever is available to all baseball fans with a valid email address, as verified by the forum's automated system, which then in turn creates a single validated account. Multiple accounts by a single user are prohibited.

By registering, you agree to adhere to the policies outlined in this document and to conduct yourself accordingly. Abuse of the forum, by repeated failure to abide by these policies, will result in your access being blocked to the forum entirely.

V. Baseball Fever Netiquette:

Participants at Baseball Fever are required to adhere to these principles, which are outlined in this section.
a. All posts to Baseball Fever should be written in clear, concise English, with proper grammar and accurate spelling. The use of abbreviations should be kept to a minimum; when abbreviation is necessary, they should be either well-known (such as etc.), or explained on their first use in your post.

b. Conciseness is a key attribute of a good post.

c. Quote only the portion of a post to which you are responding.

d. Standard capitalization and punctuation make a large difference in the readability of a post. TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS is considered to be "shouting"; it is a good practice to limit use of all capitals to words which you wish to emphasize.

e. It is our policy NOT to transmit any defamatory or illegal materials.

f. Personal attacks of any type against Baseball Fever readers will not be tolerated. In these instances the post will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the personal attack via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue personal attacks will be banned from the site.

g. It is important to remember that many contextual clues available in face-to-face discussion, such as tone of voice and facial expression, are lost in the electronic forum. As a poster, try to be alert for phrasing that might be misinterpreted by your audience to be offensive; as a reader, remember to give the benefit of the doubt and not to take umbrage too easily. There are many instances in which a particular choice of words or phrasing can come across as being a personal attack where none was intended.

h. The netiquette described above (a-g) often uses the term "posts", but applies equally to Private Messages.

VI. Baseball Fever User Signature Policy

A signature is a piece of text that some members may care to have inserted at the end of ALL of their posts, a little like the closing of a letter. You can set and / or change your signature by editing your profile in the UserCP. Since it is visible on ALL your posts, the following policy must be adhered to:

Signature Composition
Font size limit: No larger than size 2 (This policy is a size 2)
Style: Bold and italics are permissible
Character limit: No more than 500 total characters
Lines: No more than 4 lines
Colors: Most colors are permissible, but those which are hard to discern against the gray background (yellow, white, pale gray) should be avoided
Images/Graphics: Allowed, but nothing larger than 20k and Content rules must be followed

Signature Content
No advertising is permitted
Nothing political or religious
Nothing obscene, vulgar, defamatory or derogatory
Links to personal blogs/websites are permissible - with the webmaster's written consent
A Link to your Baseball Fever Blog does not require written consent and is recommended
Quotes must be attributed. Non-baseball quotes are permissible as long as they are not religious or political

Please adhere to these rules when you create your signature. Failure to do so will result in a request to comply by a moderator. If you do not comply within a reasonable amount of time, the signature will be removed and / or edited by an Administrator. Baseball Fever reserves the right to edit and / or remove any or all of your signature line at any time without contacting the account holder.

VII. Appropriate and inappropriate topics for Baseball Fever:

Most concisely, the test for whether a post is appropriate for Baseball Fever is: "Does this message discuss our national pastime in an interesting manner?" This post can be direct or indirect: posing a question, asking for assistance, providing raw data or citations, or discussing and constructively critiquing existing posts. In general, a broad interpretation of "baseball related" is used.

Baseball Fever is not a promotional environment. Advertising of products, web sites, etc., whether for profit or not-for-profit, is not permitted. At the webmaster's discretion, brief one-time announcements for products or services of legitimate baseball interest and usefulness may be allowed. If advertising is posted to the site it will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the post via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue advertising will be banned from the site. If the advertising is spam-related, pornography-based, or a "visit-my-site" type post / private message, no warning at all will be provided, and the member will be banned immediately without a warning.

It is considered appropriate to post a URL to a page which specifically and directly answers a question posted on the list (for example, it would be permissible to post a link to a page containing home-road splits, even on a site which has advertising or other commercial content; however, it would not be appropriate to post the URL of the main page of the site). The site reserves the right to limit the frequency of such announcements by any individual or group.

In keeping with our test for a proper topic, posting to Baseball Fever should be treated as if you truly do care. This includes posting information that is, to the best of your knowledge, complete and accurate at the time you post. Any errors or ambiguities you catch later should be acknowledged and corrected in the thread, since Baseball Fever is sometimes considered to be a valuable reference for research information.

VIII. Role of the moderator:

When a post is submitted to Baseball Fever, it is forwarded by the server automatically and seen immediately. The moderator may:
a. Leave the thread exactly like it was submitted. This is the case 95% of the time.

b. Immediately delete the thread as inappropriate for Baseball Fever. Examples include advertising, personal attacks, or spam. This is the case 1% of the time.

c. Move the thread. If a member makes a post about the Marlins in the Yankees forum it will be moved to the appropriate forum. This is the case 3% of the time.

d. Edit the message due to an inappropriate item. This is the case 1% of the time. There have been new users who will make a wonderful post, then add to their signature line (where your name / handle appears) a tagline that is a pure advertisement. This tagline will be removed, a note will be left in the message so he/she is aware of the edit, and personal contact will be made to the poster telling them what has been edited and what actions need to be taken to prevent further edits.

The moderators perform no checks on posts to verify factual or logical accuracy. While he/she may point out gross errors in factual data in replies to the thread, the moderator does not act as an "accuracy" editor. Also moderation is not a vehicle for censorship of individuals and/or opinions, and the moderator's decisions should not be taken personally.

IX. Legal aspects of participation in Baseball Fever:

By submitting a post to Baseball Fever, you grant Baseball Fever permission to distribute your message to the forum. Other rights pertaining to the post remain with the ORIGINAL author, and you may not redistribute or retransmit any posts by any others, in whole or in part, without the express consent of the original author.

The messages appearing on Baseball Fever contain the opinions and views of their respective authors and are not necessarily those of Baseball Fever, or of the Baseball Almanac family of sites.

Sincerely,

Sean Holtz, Webmaster of Baseball Almanac & Baseball Fever
www.baseball-almanac.com | www.baseball-fever.com
"Baseball Almanac: Sharing Baseball. Sharing History."
See more
See less

The Grich Factor

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Grich Factor

    Since the election of Blyleven and Santo, Grich has become the de facto #1 HOF cause (for me at least) among retired players no longer on the BBWAA ballot from the past 50 or so years. Among those who have retired and who's careers make them eligible for the Modern Era ballot through those who have retired as of the end of this season, how many other second basemen have a HOF case that are not in the HOF?

    I have the following as HOF worthy:

    1. Bobby Grich
    2. Lou WHitaker
    3. Jeff Kent
    4. Chase Utley

    Who am I forgetting? Who do you support at this position? How to you rank them? How to they compare to Bobby Grich's HOF case?

  • #2
    I agree with this list. Some people are going to throw in Willie Randolph, but I disagree with that. These are the 4 with Grich being the best.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by DaKid12 View Post
      I agree with this list. Some people are going to throw in Willie Randolph, but I disagree with that. These are the 4 with Grich being the best.
      Randolph was a great defensive 2B, but I agree. I put his overall career just a notch below the HOF.

      Comment


      • #4
        For me the clear #1 player from the last 50 years is Dick Allen, no question.

        Although Ross Barnes is the most deserving of all 2B, I have Jeff Kent as the most deserving of Modern Era 2B.

        1. Jeff Kent - by a noticeable margin
        ----------------
        2. Lou Whitaker
        3. Bobby Grich
        ----------------
        4. Chase Utley
        5. Willie Randolph

        All others are below the HOF line
        Last edited by dgarza; 11-08-2018, 05:38 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Looking at JAWS. There are 20 second basemen in the HOF. In the top 20 at 2B we see these non-hall-of-famers:

          7 - Cano
          8 - Grich
          11 - Utley
          13 - Whitaker
          17 - Randolph
          18 - Kinsler
          19 - Pedroia
          20 - Kent

          Among the next ten we see these six HOFers: Herman, Doerr, Fox, Lazzeri, McPhee, Evers. At the bottom we see: 36 - Schoendienst and 51 - Mazeroski. Ross Barnes is #66, but when you adjust for the short schedules he's in the top five 2B all-time.
          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

          Comment


          • #6
            I do not want to derail this conversation, but I still cannot get over how Kent isn’t higher in all in these rankings. I watched his entire career and from San Francisco on, there was no doubt in my mind I was watching a Hall of Famer. Never did I think Craig Biggio was the better player. I honestly thought he’d be a first ballot guy when he retired, and now it looks like he won’t even be voted in within 10 years. I hope he eventually finds a way in.

            Comment


            • #7
              For a guy who didn't 'feel' like a HOFer, he needs great counting stats to make it. Whitaker lasted a long time and almost made the cut..I think he needed 3000 hits or something like that. Grich wasn't consistent, but he did have 2 or 3 nice peak seasons. I suppose a guy with Whitaker's longevity and consistency, combined with Grich's peak would be a HOFer. Maybe that would be Trammell.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DaKid12 View Post
                I do not want to derail this conversation, but I still cannot get over how Kent isn’t higher in all in these rankings. I watched his entire career and from San Francisco on, there was no doubt in my mind I was watching a Hall of Famer. Never did I think Craig Biggio was the better player. I honestly thought he’d be a first ballot guy when he retired, and now it looks like he won’t even be voted in within 10 years. I hope he eventually finds a way in.
                One of the main reasons Kent tends to get dinged is that second base is traditionally seen as a defensive position and while Kent wasn't a bad defensive player, he is not in the same class as Grich or Randolph defensively. Offensively, he was one of the most dominant players ever to field the position and I share your bewilderment over how much of a struggle it has been for him just to stay on the ballot.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                  One of the main reasons Kent tends to get dinged is that second base is traditionally seen as a defensive position and while Kent wasn't a bad defensive player, he is not in the same class as Grich or Randolph defensively. Offensively, he was one of the most dominant players ever to field the position and I share your bewilderment over how much of a struggle it has been for him just to stay on the ballot.
                  Kent is a short career, traditional, peak candidate. He didn't do anything of note until age 29 when he joined the Giants. Kent has the traditional stats of a HoF caliber second baseman (.290 BA, 500 SLG, 376 HR, 1,518 RBI, 1,320 R, 560 doubles. The modern metrics aren't as high on Kent due to hsi defense and late career start.
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                    Kent is a short career, traditional, peak candidate. He didn't do anything of note until age 29 when he joined the Giants. Kent has the traditional stats of a HoF caliber second baseman (.290 BA, 500 SLG, 376 HR, 1,518 RBI, 1,320 R, 560 doubles. The modern metrics aren't as high on Kent due to hsi defense and late career start.
                    What about the theory that it's best to finish strong than start strong? I wonder if Kent would be viewed differently if he was great up until age 29 then faded in his 30s?

                    At 2298 games, he certainly is not a 'short career guy'.

                    He is basically Jim Rice at second base.
                    Last edited by willshad; 11-08-2018, 11:33 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have the following as HoF worthy:

                      1. Bobby Grich
                      2. Lou Whitaker
                      3. Chase Utley

                      Kent's poor defense excludes and the dubious league quality,until a few years ago the National Association 1871-1875 wasn't classified as a major league, excludes Ross Barnes.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by willshad View Post

                        What about the theory that it's best to finish strong than start strong? I wonder if Kent would be viewed differently if he was great up until age 29 then faded in his 30s?

                        At 2298 games, he certainly is not a 'short career guy'.

                        He is basically Jim Rice at second base.
                        What I meant by short career guy is that his packed his best seasons in his 30's. Even his age 29 season with the Giants wasn't that great. Yes, he hit 29 HR with 128 RBI, 90 R, 38 doubles. But he only hit .250/.319/.472, 105 OPS+. Kent did have 4.1 WAR which is just short of borderline All Star. So through age 29 Kent had a career 106 OPS+. That is decidedly non Hall of Fame caliber. Then from age 30-39 Kent hit .301/.373/.529, 133 OPS+. Kent's lack of great production in his 20's hurts his Hall of Fame case. Had he started his run even just two years earlier that would have helped him a lot IMO. Even so, Kent is the career leader in HR by second basemen and is just one of three second basemen (Hornsby, LaJoie) in history with over 1,500 RBI. Kent is just the second second baseman to have a career .500 slugging percentage. Kent also has 560 doubles which is fourth all time among second basemen (Biggio, LaJoie, Gehringer).
                        Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 11-08-2018, 12:26 PM.
                        Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                          how many other second basemen have a HOF case that are not in the HOF?
                          I know he gets knocked around a lot on these boards, but I do have Chuck Knoblauch as my highest ranked Modern Age 2B not in the Hall and not quite worthy of the Hall. While I dont believer he belongs, I think his case is very strong. Multi-position players Tony Phillips and Julio Franco are in the same tier.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post

                            Kent is a short career, traditional, peak candidate. He didn't do anything of note until age 29 when he joined the Giants. Kent has the traditional stats of a HoF caliber second baseman (.290 BA, 500 SLG, 376 HR, 1,518 RBI, 1,320 R, 560 doubles. The modern metrics aren't as high on Kent due to hsi defense and late career start.
                            He really isn't a short career guy. He's 117th all time in plate appearances, and qualified for the batting title 13 times. In his four other seasons, he was in the 470's for PA's three times, and had 343 PA's as a rookie. If anything, he is a long career candidate at 2B. Only Biggio, Collins, Morgan, Carew, Lajoie, Alomar, Fox, Gehringer, Frisch, and Whitaker have more PA's amongst primary second basemen (and Carew is a partial second baseman). He's 11th in PA's at second all time with second as their primary position.

                            He might seem like it versus Biggio, but Biggio is 11th all time in PA's. Everyone from Alomar downwards on the above list is less than 1000 PA's in front of Kent.


                            Edit: I was typing this up before Honus' clarification. But my points are still valid in general.
                            Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 11-08-2018, 12:41 PM.
                            "Baseball breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart." - A. Bartlett Giamatti

                            Play the Who am I? game in trivia and you can make this signature line yours for 3 days (baseball signatures only!)

                            Go here for a link to all player links! http://www.baseball-fever.com/forum/...player-threads

                            Go here for all your 1920's/1930's OF info

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              My Top 10 Second Basemen (MLB only) Outside Cooperstown

                              1. Bobby Grich (eligible for 2020 Modern Era)
                              2. Lou Whitaker (eligible for 2020 Modern Era)
                              3. Ross Barnes (eligible for 2021 Early Baseball)
                              4. Robinson Cano (ineligible due to active player status)
                              5. Chase Utley (ineligible due to 5-year wait for BBWAA)
                              6. Jeff Kent (eligible for 2019 BBWAA)
                              7. Willie Randolph (eligible for 2020 Modern Era)
                              8. Ian Kinsler (ineligible due to active player status)
                              9. Hardy Richardson (eligible for 2021 Early Baseball)
                              10. Fred Dunlap (eligible for 2021 Early Baseball)
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X