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  • #16
    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    JOF - you don't have Chuck Finley in that group?
    Regular season blend of B-R. B-G. and a dash of F-G and you are right,
    Gooden, Hershiser, Hudson, Pettitte, Finley, Viola!, Oswalt comprise a group quite close together.

    Chuck is outlier bad at Tom Thress...if Thress has captured something they others may be missing, Finley falls out of this group.
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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

      Regular season blend of B-R. B-G. and a dash of F-G and you are right,
      Gooden, Hershiser, Hudson, Pettitte, Finley, Viola!, Oswalt comprise a group quite close together.

      Chuck is outlier bad at Tom Thress...if Thress has captured something they others may be missing, Finley falls out of this group.
      With rrERA+ factored-in, Finley falls down to the mid 80's too in PARC-D.
      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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      • #18
        I would say all of the players you've selected so far are great choices and to me the 19 who fell short are Hall of Famers. If I were you I would add them all lol. However, at least add the following from that list:

        1. Jim Edmonds one of the greatest defensive centerfielders all time which everyone already knows. However, he was very dangerous at the plate and had homerun power. He's punished for not reaching 2,000 hits but he was banged up a lot.

        2. Jimmy Wynn a CF with a cannon arm. I believe he's been unduly punished for playing in the Astrodome. He still hit 15 in there in a single season and three in one game. If you look into him you will find tons of info about why he belongs.

        3. Dave Stieb led the A.L. in pitching WAR three years in a row meaning he could've won 3 Cy Youngs. He's one of the ultimate sabermetric pitchers.

        4. Bobby Bonds was an excellent five tool guy. A neat stat about him is that he's fifth all-time in power-speed and led the league 9 times. What a valuable player!

        5. Bill Freehan is one of the greatest catchers all time and there's no question they are difficult to quantify. Again here's someone punished for not reaching 2,000 hits. He had good power as a catcher with 200 bombs was an 11 time all-star and won 5 Gold Gloves. In Detroits World Series 1968 season Freehan accumulated 7 WAR.

        6. Tony Oliva didn't get solid playing time until age 25 and he was ready before. He's pretty much a five tool guy just lacking the stolen bases. His 131 OPS+ is excellent, he led the league in hits five times, doubles four times, and batting average three times.

        7. David Cone has a Cy Young and was top three in pitching War 5 times. If not for injuries he'd have 3,000 strikeouts. It's well known but he was a coveted playoff gun and an ace. I think he's punished for not reaching 200 wins and pitching the same time as so many great pitchers.

        8. Bret Saberhagen suffered a lot of the same disrespect as above Cone. He won two Cy Youngs and led the league in pitching WAR twice. He has more of the advance stats on his side vs. Cone as a strikeout guy. I'd take the two as a one two punch on my team any day.

        9. Buddy Bell is one of the greatest defensive players all-time and maybe the greatest defensive third baseman. Good offensively.

        10. Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs and should have won a third. Clemens is the only retired player with 3 not in the Hall.

        11. Rick Reuschel could've won the 77 Cy Young. Was in top three in pitching WAR four times. It's said that his teams played horrible defense. His 68.1 pitching WAR is 34th all-time that's pretty good company.

        12. Billy Pierce was an ace and he led the A.L. in pitching WAR in 53 and 55. He was top three in FIP five times.
        Last edited by Stieb37; 10-31-2019, 06:30 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
          Nice list! If you are considering relievers beyond Wagner, Tom Henke and Joe Nathan are both worth looking into.
          I'm all for those guys and I would at least add Dan Quisenberry and John Hiller.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post
            I would say all of the players you've selected so far are great choices and to me the 19 who fell short are Hall of Famers. If I were you I would add them all lol. However, at least add the following from that list:

            1. Jim Edmonds one of the greatest defensive centerfielders all time which everyone already knows. However, he was very dangerous at the plate and had homerun power. He's punished for not reaching 2,000 hits but he was banged up a lot.

            2. Jimmy Wynn a CF with a cannon arm. I believe he's been unduly punished for playing in the Astrodome. He still hit 15 in there in a single season and three in one game. If you look into him you will find tons of info about why he belongs.

            3. Dave Stieb led the A.L. in pitching WAR three years in a row meaning he could've won 3 Cy Youngs. He's one of the ultimate sabermetric pitchers.

            4. Bobby Bonds was an excellent five tool guy. A neat stat about him is that he's fifth all-time in power-speed and led the league 9 times. What a valuable player!

            5. Bill Freehan is one of the greatest catchers all time and there's no question they are difficult to quantify. Again here's someone punished for not reaching 2,000 hits. He had good power as a catcher with 200 bombs was an 11 time all-star and won 5 Gold Gloves. In Detroits World Series 1968 season Freehan accumulated 7 WAR.

            6. Tony Oliva didn't get solid playing time until age 25 and he was ready before. He's pretty much a five tool guy just lacking the stolen bases. His 131 OPS+ is excellent, he led the league in hits five times, doubles four times, and batting average three times.

            7. David Cone has a Cy Young and was top three in pitching War 5 times. If not for injuries he'd have 3,000 strikeouts. It's well known but he was a coveted playoff gun and an ace. I think he's punished for not reaching 200 wins and pitching the same time as so many great pitchers.

            8. Bret Saberhagen suffered a lot of the same disrespect as above Cone. He won two Cy Youngs and led the league in pitching WAR twice. He has more of the advance stats on his side vs. Cone as a strikeout guy. I'd take the two as a one two punch on my team any day.

            9. Buddy Bell is one of the greatest defensive players all-time and maybe the greatest defensive third baseman. Good offensively.

            10. Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs and should have won a third. Clemens is the only retired player with 3 not in the Hall.

            11. Rick Reuschel could've won the 77 Cy Young. Was in top three in pitching WAR four times. It's said that his teams played horrible defense. His 68.1 pitching WAR is 34th all-time that's pretty good company.

            12. Billy Pierce was an ace and he led the A.L. in pitching WAR in 53 and 55. He was top three in FIP five times.
            I'm Chadwick. I'm running for....well, I'm too old to run, but I endorse this message.
            "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
            "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
            "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
            "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

            Comment


            • #21
              DaKid...great job on doing a HOF list...they're a lot of work!

              Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post
              I would say all of the players you've selected so far are great choices and to me the 19 who fell short are Hall of Famers. If I were you I would add them all lol. However, at least add the following from that list:

              1. Jim Edmonds one of the greatest defensive centerfielders all time which everyone already knows. However, he was very dangerous at the plate and had homerun power. He's punished for not reaching 2,000 hits but he was banged up a lot.

              2. Jimmy Wynn a CF with a cannon arm. I believe he's been unduly punished for playing in the Astrodome. He still hit 15 in there in a single season and three in one game. If you look into him you will find tons of info about why he belongs.

              3. Dave Stieb led the A.L. in pitching WAR three years in a row meaning he could've won 3 Cy Youngs. He's one of the ultimate sabermetric pitchers.

              4. Bobby Bonds was an excellent five tool guy. A neat stat about him is that he's fifth all-time in power-speed and led the league 9 times. What a valuable player!

              5. Bill Freehan is one of the greatest catchers all time and there's no question they are difficult to quantify. Again here's someone punished for not reaching 2,000 hits. He had good power as a catcher with 200 bombs was an 11 time all-star and won 5 Gold Gloves. In Detroits World Series 1968 season Freehan accumulated 7 WAR.

              6. Tony Oliva didn't get solid playing time until age 25 and he was ready before. He's pretty much a five tool guy just lacking the stolen bases. His 131 OPS+ is excellent, he led the league in hits five times, doubles four times, and batting average three times.

              7. David Cone has a Cy Young and was top three in pitching War 5 times. If not for injuries he'd have 3,000 strikeouts. It's well known but he was a coveted playoff gun and an ace. I think he's punished for not reaching 200 wins and pitching the same time as so many great pitchers.

              8. Bret Saberhagen suffered a lot of the same disrespect as above Cone. He won two Cy Youngs and led the league in pitching WAR twice. He has more of the advance stats on his side vs. Cone as a strikeout guy. I'd take the two as a one two punch on my team any day.

              9. Buddy Bell is one of the greatest defensive players all-time and maybe the greatest defensive third baseman. Good offensively.

              10. Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs and should have won a third. Clemens is the only retired player with 3 not in the Hall.

              11. Rick Reuschel could've won the 77 Cy Young. Was in top three in pitching WAR four times. It's said that his teams played horrible defense. His 68.1 pitching WAR is 34th all-time that's pretty good company.

              12. Billy Pierce was an ace and he led the A.L. in pitching WAR in 53 and 55. He was top three in FIP five times.
              I'll limit myself to saying, I disagree with well over half...if you're looking for discussion on any of them DaKid, let me know. I'll only comment on Jimmy Wynn right now....please, please look at his home/road splits. You'll see he was not negatively impacted by Houston. This may be one of the top 10 statistical misnomers of all time in baseball.

              Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 11-02-2019, 03:07 PM.
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              • #22
                I'm going to advocate more for Jim Wynn. He reached 20 homers eight times. Has a career adjusted OPS+ of 129. After leaving Houston and moving to the Dodgers Wynn scored 104 runs, hit 32 homers, walked 108 times, and collected a .387 OBP. He dealt with injuries throughout his career fro.crashing into the wall, being stabbed in the stomach, then shoulder problems to his throwing arm. I believe Bill James ranked him 10th all-time among CF in the Historical Baseball Abstract.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post
                  I'm going to advocate more for Jim Wynn. He reached 20 homers eight times. Has a career adjusted OPS+ of 129. After leaving Houston and moving to the Dodgers Wynn scored 104 runs, hit 32 homers, walked 108 times, and collected a .387 OBP. He dealt with injuries throughout his career fro.crashing into the wall, being stabbed in the stomach, then shoulder problems to his throwing arm. I believe Bill James ranked him 10th all-time among CF in the Historical Baseball Abstract.
                  The Dodgers won the NL Pennant in 1974, and that propelled Steve Garvey to the NL MVP.

                  Looking back on it, though, I think it's pretty apparent that Wynn had a better season than Garvey did.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                    Great list.

                    Do I understand then that your PHOF will consist of your additions plus the existing membership of Cooperstown? Or do you intend to parse through Cooperstown's existing membership list, perhaps dropping a few who fall outside your approval?

                    I would suggest the following to add for future review to your "just missed" list. You may already have gone over these enough to have a definitive "no" opinion so feel free to disregard any or all of them. They are just suggestions for a second look, primarily as they have similar cases to the others already on your list.

                    Willie Davis
                    Darrell Evans
                    John Olerud
                    Willie Randolph
                    Bernie Williams

                    You certainly have very good groupings - of similarly productive players - at each position, which is a great indicator of where you're comfortable drawing lines.

                    Excited to see the next phase!
                    I am going to take the easy way out here and say yes, I am including all current Hall of Famers in my PHOF. Maybe as phase 3 of my project, I will look into eliminating current members out of my PHOF. I definitely took a deep looking into Evans and Randolph, who I have falling short of my personal line. I will definitely look into Davis, Olerud, and Bernie as I didn't consider them much my first time around. Thanks for the feedback.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                      Excellent list, my personal interpretations have lead me to a greater percentage of pitchers than what you have, you've pretty well covered the bases on position players.

                      My guys to consider beyond the suggestions up thread:
                      Kevin Appier
                      Bert Campaneris
                      Jason Giambi
                      Dwight Gooden
                      Orel Hershiser
                      Tim Hudson
                      Roy Oswalt
                      Andy Pettitte

                      Are you planning to include Negro Leaguers also/some candidates have resumes that run strong in the 1950s, ala Don Newcombe and Marvin Williams.
                      I am not very well educated on the Negro Leagues. This is something I am going to look into while looking at players pre-1950. I think eventually I will include Negro League candidates as well.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                        I think it's a great list too.

                        I'm always a little surprised when someone supports Tommy John but not Jim Kaat (or vice versa). Most of the angles I look at it (not just pitcher wins, although that's the obvious one), their cases are really similar.
                        Tommy John was my last player in. He is right below the line, but I have him right in adding in this historical impact of Tommy John surgery.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                          Nice list! If you are considering relievers beyond Wagner, Tom Henke and Joe Nathan are both worth looking into.
                          I really wanted to add in another reliever, but in my opinion I couldn't justify putting another one in. I looked at both Henke and Nathan, but the closest to my PHOF line was Dan Quisenberry.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post
                            I would say all of the players you've selected so far are great choices and to me the 19 who fell short are Hall of Famers. If I were you I would add them all lol. However, at least add the following from that list:

                            1. Jim Edmonds one of the greatest defensive centerfielders all time which everyone already knows. However, he was very dangerous at the plate and had homerun power. He's punished for not reaching 2,000 hits but he was banged up a lot.

                            2. Jimmy Wynn a CF with a cannon arm. I believe he's been unduly punished for playing in the Astrodome. He still hit 15 in there in a single season and three in one game. If you look into him you will find tons of info about why he belongs.

                            3. Dave Stieb led the A.L. in pitching WAR three years in a row meaning he could've won 3 Cy Youngs. He's one of the ultimate sabermetric pitchers.

                            4. Bobby Bonds was an excellent five tool guy. A neat stat about him is that he's fifth all-time in power-speed and led the league 9 times. What a valuable player!

                            5. Bill Freehan is one of the greatest catchers all time and there's no question they are difficult to quantify. Again here's someone punished for not reaching 2,000 hits. He had good power as a catcher with 200 bombs was an 11 time all-star and won 5 Gold Gloves. In Detroits World Series 1968 season Freehan accumulated 7 WAR.

                            6. Tony Oliva didn't get solid playing time until age 25 and he was ready before. He's pretty much a five tool guy just lacking the stolen bases. His 131 OPS+ is excellent, he led the league in hits five times, doubles four times, and batting average three times.

                            7. David Cone has a Cy Young and was top three in pitching War 5 times. If not for injuries he'd have 3,000 strikeouts. It's well known but he was a coveted playoff gun and an ace. I think he's punished for not reaching 200 wins and pitching the same time as so many great pitchers.

                            8. Bret Saberhagen suffered a lot of the same disrespect as above Cone. He won two Cy Youngs and led the league in pitching WAR twice. He has more of the advance stats on his side vs. Cone as a strikeout guy. I'd take the two as a one two punch on my team any day.

                            9. Buddy Bell is one of the greatest defensive players all-time and maybe the greatest defensive third baseman. Good offensively.

                            10. Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs and should have won a third. Clemens is the only retired player with 3 not in the Hall.

                            11. Rick Reuschel could've won the 77 Cy Young. Was in top three in pitching WAR four times. It's said that his teams played horrible defense. His 68.1 pitching WAR is 34th all-time that's pretty good company.

                            12. Billy Pierce was an ace and he led the A.L. in pitching WAR in 53 and 55. He was top three in FIP five times.
                            I truly appreciate the thoughtful feedback you have provided along with the messages you sent me on players to look into. It is all very much appreciated. The closest out of everyone I had in my PHOF was Bill Freehan. There were days where I had him in, and others where I did not. Interestingly enough, the next closest is someone you do not have listed here, Dale Murphy. Out of curiosity who do you think has a better HOF resume, Buddy Bell or Sal Bando?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                              DaKid...great job on doing a HOF list...they're a lot of work!



                              I'll limit myself to saying, I disagree with well over half...if you're looking for discussion on any of them DaKid, let me know. I'll only comment on Jimmy Wynn right now....please, please look at his home/road splits. You'll see he was not negatively impacted by Houston. This may be one of the top 10 statistical misnomers of all time in baseball.
                              Toledo, I really appreciate the feedback and love reading your stuff. Is there anyone that list that you do agree with that should be in the HOF? Also specifically interested in your thoughts on Murphy and Freehan, who I have as my next two in.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                This is well thought-out, Kid. Keep up the great work. I like how you're working this in phases. How do you eat an elephant? One piece at a time! Glad you're not letting the sheer size of the project dissuade you from your attempt.

                                I am looking forward to your next update.
                                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                                Comment

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