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  • Stieb37
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Nice list! If you are considering relievers beyond Wagner, Tom Henke and Joe Nathan are both worth looking into.
    I'm all for those guys and I would at least add Dan Quisenberry and John Hiller.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stieb37
    replied
    I would say all of the players you've selected so far are great choices and to me the 19 who fell short are Hall of Famers. If I were you I would add them all lol. However, at least add the following from that list:

    1. Jim Edmonds one of the greatest defensive centerfielders all time which everyone already knows. However, he was very dangerous at the plate and had homerun power. He's punished for not reaching 2,000 hits but he was banged up a lot.

    2. Jimmy Wynn a CF with a cannon arm. I believe he's been unduly punished for playing in the Astrodome. He still hit 15 in there in a single season and three in one game. If you look into him you will find tons of info about why he belongs.

    3. Dave Stieb led the A.L. in pitching WAR three years in a row meaning he could've won 3 Cy Youngs. He's one of the ultimate sabermetric pitchers.

    4. Bobby Bonds was an excellent five tool guy. A neat stat about him is that he's fifth all-time in power-speed and led the league 9 times. What a valuable player!

    5. Bill Freehan is one of the greatest catchers all time and there's no question they are difficult to quantify. Again here's someone punished for not reaching 2,000 hits. He had good power as a catcher with 200 bombs was an 11 time all-star and won 5 Gold Gloves. In Detroits World Series 1968 season Freehan accumulated 7 WAR.

    6. Tony Oliva didn't get solid playing time until age 25 and he was ready before. He's pretty much a five tool guy just lacking the stolen bases. His 131 OPS+ is excellent, he led the league in hits five times, doubles four times, and batting average three times.

    7. David Cone has a Cy Young and was top three in pitching War 5 times. If not for injuries he'd have 3,000 strikeouts. It's well known but he was a coveted playoff gun and an ace. I think he's punished for not reaching 200 wins and pitching the same time as so many great pitchers.

    8. Bret Saberhagen suffered a lot of the same disrespect as above Cone. He won two Cy Youngs and led the league in pitching WAR twice. He has more of the advance stats on his side vs. Cone as a strikeout guy. I'd take the two as a one two punch on my team any day.

    9. Buddy Bell is one of the greatest defensive players all-time and maybe the greatest defensive third baseman. Good offensively.

    10. Johan Santana won two Cy Youngs and should have won a third. Clemens is the only retired player with 3 not in the Hall.

    11. Rick Reuschel could've won the 77 Cy Young. Was in top three in pitching WAR four times. It's said that his teams played horrible defense. His 68.1 pitching WAR is 34th all-time that's pretty good company.

    12. Billy Pierce was an ace and he led the A.L. in pitching WAR in 53 and 55. He was top three in FIP five times.
    Last edited by Stieb37; 10-31-2019, 06:30 PM.

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  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

    Regular season blend of B-R. B-G. and a dash of F-G and you are right,
    Gooden, Hershiser, Hudson, Pettitte, Finley, Viola!, Oswalt comprise a group quite close together.

    Chuck is outlier bad at Tom Thress...if Thress has captured something they others may be missing, Finley falls out of this group.
    With rrERA+ factored-in, Finley falls down to the mid 80's too in PARC-D.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    JOF - you don't have Chuck Finley in that group?
    Regular season blend of B-R. B-G. and a dash of F-G and you are right,
    Gooden, Hershiser, Hudson, Pettitte, Finley, Viola!, Oswalt comprise a group quite close together.

    Chuck is outlier bad at Tom Thress...if Thress has captured something they others may be missing, Finley falls out of this group.

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Nice list! If you are considering relievers beyond Wagner, Tom Henke and Joe Nathan are both worth looking into.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post

    Geez do we really have to troll with Darrell Evans on someone PHOF that doesn't even mention him?

    The list is very solid.
    He was mentioned.

    It's hardly trolling.

    Was it trolling when I said that Rod Carew was way overrated on another thread, which started 10 pages of discussion.

    JR pretty much has a Pavlovian reaction to DE.
    Well he's light years from the hall IMO. As far as my reaction. I cringe when I see his name put forward for the hall.
    Last edited by JR Hart; 10-31-2019, 08:19 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    Chadwick brought Evans up; JR pretty much has a Pavlovian reaction to DE. (No offense intended.)
    Gotcha, lol

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post

    Geez do we really have to troll with Darrell Evans on someone PHOF that doesn't even mention him?
    Chadwick brought Evans up; JR pretty much has a Pavlovian reaction to DE. (No offense intended.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    I think it's a great list too.

    I'm always a little surprised when someone supports Tommy John but not Jim Kaat (or vice versa). Most of the angles I look at it (not just pitcher wins, although that's the obvious one), their cases are really similar.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Good stuff. I agree with about everyone.

    good to see Albert Belle up there. Belle clearly belongs. I've never understood posters who are down on Belle.

    Darrrell Evans couldn't carry Albert Belle's batting doughnut.
    Geez do we really have to troll with Darrell Evans on someone PHOF that doesn't even mention him?

    The list is very solid.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Good stuff. I agree with about everyone.

    good to see Albert Belle up there. Belle clearly belongs. I've never understood posters who are down on Belle.

    Darrrell Evans couldn't carry Albert Belle's batting doughnut.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    JOF - you don't have Chuck Finley in that group?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    Excellent list, my personal interpretations have lead me to a greater percentage of pitchers than what you have, you've pretty well covered the bases on position players.

    My guys to consider beyond the suggestions up thread:
    Kevin Appier
    Bert Campaneris
    Jason Giambi
    Dwight Gooden
    Orel Hershiser
    Tim Hudson
    Roy Oswalt
    Andy Pettitte

    Are you planning to include Negro Leaguers also/some candidates have resumes that run strong in the 1950s, ala Don Newcombe and Marvin Williams.
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 10-30-2019, 07:35 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Great list.

    Do I understand then that your PHOF will consist of your additions plus the existing membership of Cooperstown? Or do you intend to parse through Cooperstown's existing membership list, perhaps dropping a few who fall outside your approval?

    I would suggest the following to add for future review to your "just missed" list. You may already have gone over these enough to have a definitive "no" opinion so feel free to disregard any or all of them. They are just suggestions for a second look, primarily as they have similar cases to the others already on your list.

    Willie Davis
    Darrell Evans
    John Olerud
    Willie Randolph
    Bernie Williams

    You certainly have very good groupings - of similarly productive players - at each position, which is a great indicator of where you're comfortable drawing lines.

    Excited to see the next phase!

    Leave a comment:


  • layson27
    replied
    Edmonds is someone you may want to reconsider as he's basically Walker's equal, at least that's how I see it.

    Leave a comment:

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