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  • #16
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    While we're at it, also Buck Weaver, Hal Chase, and Russ Ford as well.
    They're not in Rose's class, and not even especially close.

    Based on on-field accomplishments alone, setting aside any "character clause" considerations, those guys are at very best borderline. (And I'm the #BigHall guy.)

    Cicotte has a relatively stronger case, and Shoeless Joe & Charlie Hustle are slam dunks.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post

      Yeah he's one of those 30 guys that I would feel comfortable swapping out with 90-100. I would still rank Cicotte and Shoeless higher based on a greater peak than Rose.
      I feel like I'm picking on you, and I don't want to, so sorry in advance.

      But...

      Peak is important, but, uh, Hit King? 4200 and change? #2 in doubles too, so he wasn't hitting all bloops and infield grounders.

      And it's not as if Rose didn't have any big seasons...he won a MVP, and came close other times.

      You really want, to just pluck a few names out, Jim Fregosi, Brian Giles, Kevin Appier over Pete blankety-blank Rose?!

      If you're saying no on the gambling, or the underage girlfriend, or the atrocious haircut...I'm with you 100%. But if it's not a character clause exclusion, keeping Rose out based on on-field only is bloody madness.
      Last edited by Cougar; 11-17-2019, 08:10 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Great thread

        I love a big hall, but even I had to stretch it to get to 100. But, not by much. Looking at the list, I'd love it if all 100 of these guys went in. at once

        THE JR 100!!
        1B
        Cal McVey 1B
        Carlos Delgado 1B
        Fred McGriff 1B
        Gil Hodges 1B
        Hardy Richardson 2B
        Joe Start 1B
        Keith Hernandez 1B
        Mark McGwire 1B
        Norm Cash 1B
        Rafael Palmeiro 1B
        Steve Garvey 1B
        Will Clark 1B
        2B
        Bobby Grich 2B
        Buddy Myer 2B
        Cupid Childs 2B
        Lou Whitaker 2B
        Ross Barnes 2B
        Willie Randolph 2B
        SS
        Bert Campaneris SS
        Bill Dahlen SS
        Cecil Travis SS
        Dave Concepcion SS
        Dick Groat SS
        Ed McKean SS
        Herman Long SS
        Jack Glasscock SS
        Jim Fregosi SS
        Maury Wills SS
        Nomar Garciaparra SS
        3B
        Bob Elliott 3B
        Buddy Bell 3B
        Dick Allen 3B
        Graig Nettles 3B
        Heinie Groh 3B
        Ken Boyer 3B
        Lave Cross 3B
        Matt Williams 3B
        Sal Bando 3B
        Stan Hack 3B
        LF
        Albert Belle LF
        Bob Johnson LF
        Charlie Keller LF
        Gavvy Cravath LF
        Harry Stovey LF
        Jimmy Sheckard LF
        Lance Berkman LF
        Lip Pike LF
        Minnie Minoso LF
        Sherry Magee LF
        CF
        Bernie Williams CF
        Cesar Cedeno CF
        Dale Murphy CF
        George Gore CF
        George Van Haltren CF
        Jim Edmonds CF
        Jimmy Ryan CF
        Kenny Lofton CF
        Mike Donlin CF
        Paul Hines CF
        Pete Browning CF
        RF
        Babe Herman RF
        Bobby Bonds RF
        Dave Parker RF
        Dwight Evans RF
        Frank Howard RF
        Jose Canseco RF
        Juan Gonzales RF
        Mike Tiernan RF
        Reggie Smith RF
        Roger Maris RF
        Tommy Henrich RF
        Tony Oliva RF
        C
        Bill Freehan C
        Charlie Bennett C
        Elston Howard C
        Ted Simmons C
        Thurman Munson C
        P
        Allie Reynolds P
        Billy Pierce P
        Bob Caruthers P
        Charlie Buffinton P
        Dave Stieb P
        David Cone P
        Don Newcombe P
        Jerry Koosman P
        Jim McCormick P
        Johan Santana P
        Kevin Brown P
        Luis Tiant P
        Mel Harder P
        Orel Hershiser P
        Rick Reuschel P
        Silver King P
        Tommy Bond P
        Tony Mullane P
        Vida Blue P
        RP
        Firpo Marberry RP
        John Franco RP
        Randy Myers RP
        Tug McGraw RP
        Last edited by JR Hart; 11-17-2019, 09:03 PM.
        This week's Giant

        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cougar View Post

          They're not in Rose's class, and not even especially close.

          Based on on-field accomplishments alone, setting aside any "character clause" considerations, those guys are at very best borderline. (And I'm the #BigHall guy.)

          Cicotte has a relatively stronger case, and Shoeless Joe & Charlie Hustle are slam dunks.
          The nature of this thread obviously advocates for a very big hall. In the case of Hal Chase, he was the best first baseman in the game in his era for a time. Russ Ford was banned from the game because of the reserve clause. If you project out his career, assuming a normal decline, he would have had a HOF career. Agreed that Weaver is borderline, but he was definitely talented and unlike Jackson, probably had at least 7-8 years left in him at the time of his ban.

          Comment


          • #20
            C
            Charlie Bennett
            Bill Freehan
            Thurman Munson
            Ted Simmons

            1B
            Dick Allen
            Will Clark
            Keith Hernandez
            Fred McGriff
            John Olerud

            2B
            Ross Barnes
            Bobby Grich
            Jeff Kent
            Chase Utley
            Lou Whitaker

            SS
            Bill Dahlen
            Jack Glasscock

            3B
            Ken Boyer
            Graig Nettles

            LF
            Sherry Magee
            Minnie Minoso

            CF
            Pete Browning
            Jim Edmonds
            George Gore
            Paul Hines
            Kenny Lofton
            Dale Murphy
            Bernie Williams

            RF
            Tony Oliva

            P
            Bob Caruthers
            David Cone
            Billy Pierce
            Johan Santana
            Urban Shocker
            Dave Stieb
            Luis Tiant

            wow 100 is going to be tough this is only 30.
            Last edited by PVNICK; 11-19-2019, 04:32 AM. Reason: adding some more names

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

              The nature of this thread obviously advocates for a very big hall. In the case of Hal Chase, he was the best first baseman in the game in his era for a time. Russ Ford was banned from the game because of the reserve clause. If you project out his career, assuming a normal decline, he would have had a HOF career. Agreed that Weaver is borderline, but he was definitely talented and unlike Jackson, probably had at least 7-8 years left in him at the time of his ban.
              CHASE

              Hal Chase pretty much got a full career in; he left MLB at age 36 with over 2100 hits. He might have had a couple more seasons in the tank, we'll never know, but he's got a complete resume for evaluation, and it's pretty much lacking, even if you put all the off-field stuff aside.

              Maybe if the HOF existed in 1925, he sneaks in, because there weren't a whole lot of really dominant first basemen up to that point, particularly contemporaneously to Chase's career.

              There were certainly some: Anson, Beckley, Brouthers, Connor, Chance, Sisler, Harry Davis, Stuffy McInnis, Ed Konetchy, Jake Daubert...now that I'm pecking them out, there were more than I thought. But other than McInnis, Daubert & Konetchy, none of these guys' careers overlapped with Chase all that much, if at all. Among those four, call them the first basemen of the 1910's...Chase doesn't appear, at least from the statistical record, to have been as good as the other three, in my judgment. But I'll grant contemporary opinion, with its halcyon tales of his fielding prowess, its due.

              But now? There's probably thirty first basemen, minimum, not in the HOF, who have better on-field Cooperstown cases than Chase.


              WEAVER

              Weaver's career was foreshortened, but we still have a fair bit to go by; he got nine more-or-less full seasons in, which is nothing to sneeze at. And they were nine good seasons. Weaver was 30 when he played his last MLB game. If he'd had nine more seasons like his first nine, or even just six, seven or eight, I think I'd be solidly behind his HOF argument.

              But we only have the nine, and while they were good seasons (as I said above), they weren't exactly transcendent. Going by Mike Trout's first nine seasons, or Albert Pujols, or Joe DiMaggio's...yeah, bronze the plaque right then and there if you have to. But Weaver...I don't think so.

              By Bill James's Similarity Scores (and yeah, I know they're imperfect, but I think they're good enough in this context), his five best comps at age 29 are Bobby Richardson, Willie Randolph, Rennie Stennett, Alfredo Griffin, and Steve Sax.

              Are any of those guys HOFers? Randolph, maybe, but he sure wasn't after his age 29 season, and not everyone is convinced he belongs in the HOF despite playing out his whole career. And there are a slew of reasons to think Randolph was a better player than Weaver ever was, which are obvious enough that I probably don't need to spell them out.

              Alfredo Griffin is the only other shortstop, and he feels like a better fit, although I'll readily aver that when one takes the dead ball era, advanced stats, etc., into account, that Buck Weaver was clearly better.

              So you;ve got a guy who, through a partial career, his twenties, was better than Alfredo Griffin but not as good as Willie Randolph. Does that sound like a HOFer to you?


              RUSS FORD

              This is a very idiosyncratic choice. Ford played seven seasons in MLB (including the Federal League, which is a little dubious as a major league), but really only five full ones (one in the FL). His first full season, he was 27; his last 31. He threw his last MLB pitch at 32, in the Federal League.

              Even assuming he could still pitch at a major league level going deeper into his thirties, which is seriously dubious considering his age 32 season was basically a bust, due to a "sore arm", (which could have been a lot of debilitating things), and further considering that his most effective pitch, the "emery ball", had been banned...how good would you really project him to be, if he pitched to, say, age 40?

              You said something about the reserve clause...is it possible you're thinking of a different guy? Ford's SABR bio says he retired due to the sore arm and never mentions the reserve clause.
              Last edited by Cougar; 11-18-2019, 02:21 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Great lists, fellas! Very enjoyable reading.
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cougar View Post

                  RUSS FORD

                  This is a very idiosyncratic choice. Ford played seven seasons in MLB (including the Federal League, which is a little dubious as a major league), but really only five full ones (one in the FL). His first full season, he was 27; his last 31. He threw his last MLB pitch at 32, in the Federal League.

                  Even assuming he could still pitch at a major league level going deeper into his thirties, which is seriously dubious considering his age 32 season was basically a bust, due to a "sore arm", (which could have been a lot of debilitating things), and further considering that his most effective pitch, the "emery ball", had been banned...how good would you really project him to be, if he pitched to, say, age 40?

                  You said something about the reserve clause...is it possible you're thinking of a different guy? Ford's SABR bio says he retired due to the sore arm and never mentions the reserve clause.
                  Yeah, the guy I was thinking of was Ray Fisher. Sorry about that. I somehow blended his and Russ Ford's careers. Fisher is a man with an interesting baseball history, but not a HOFer even in a big hall.More on Fisher here"

                  https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/2ab8da34

                  The only other banned player I can think of who had a promising enough career was Benny Kauff.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
                    Great lists, fellas! Very enjoyable reading.
                    In agreement that's the most enjoyable part of these is reading everyone's lists.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                      C
                      Charlie Bennett
                      Bill Freehan
                      Thurman Munson
                      Ted Simmons

                      1B
                      Dick Allen
                      Will Clark
                      Keith Hernandez
                      Fred McGriff
                      John Olerud

                      2B
                      Bobby Grich
                      Jeff Kent
                      Chase Utley
                      Lou Whitaker

                      SS
                      Bill Dahlen

                      3B
                      Ken Boyer

                      LF
                      Minnie Minoso

                      CF
                      Pete Browning
                      Jim Edmonds
                      George Gore
                      Paul Hines
                      Kenny Lofton
                      Dale Murphy
                      Bernie Williams

                      RF
                      Tony Oliva

                      P
                      Bob Caruthers
                      David Cone
                      Billy Pierce
                      Johan Santana
                      Dave Stieb
                      Luis Tiant

                      wow 100 is going to be tough this is only 30.
                      Check out Jack Glasscock and Jack Fournier I think you'll like them.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                        Great thread

                        I love a big hall, but even I had to stretch it to get to 100. But, not by much. Looking at the list, I'd love it if all 100 of these guys went in. at once

                        Rick Reuschel P

                        Not that I am arguing, but Reuschel does not seem like the type of pitcher you would support.

                        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post

                          Check out Jack Glasscock and Jack Fournier I think you'll like them.
                          I totally vapor locked on Glasscock. He is in my top 20 SS al -time. Fournier is a good call too.

                          Comment

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