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  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post

    Check out Jack Glasscock and Jack Fournier I think you'll like them.
    I totally vapor locked on Glasscock. He is in my top 20 SS al -time. Fournier is a good call too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    Great thread

    I love a big hall, but even I had to stretch it to get to 100. But, not by much. Looking at the list, I'd love it if all 100 of these guys went in. at once

    Rick Reuschel P

    Not that I am arguing, but Reuschel does not seem like the type of pitcher you would support.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stieb37
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    C
    Charlie Bennett
    Bill Freehan
    Thurman Munson
    Ted Simmons

    1B
    Dick Allen
    Will Clark
    Keith Hernandez
    Fred McGriff
    John Olerud

    2B
    Bobby Grich
    Jeff Kent
    Chase Utley
    Lou Whitaker

    SS
    Bill Dahlen

    3B
    Ken Boyer

    LF
    Minnie Minoso

    CF
    Pete Browning
    Jim Edmonds
    George Gore
    Paul Hines
    Kenny Lofton
    Dale Murphy
    Bernie Williams

    RF
    Tony Oliva

    P
    Bob Caruthers
    David Cone
    Billy Pierce
    Johan Santana
    Dave Stieb
    Luis Tiant

    wow 100 is going to be tough this is only 30.
    Check out Jack Glasscock and Jack Fournier I think you'll like them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stieb37
    replied
    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    Great lists, fellas! Very enjoyable reading.
    In agreement that's the most enjoyable part of these is reading everyone's lists.

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    RUSS FORD

    This is a very idiosyncratic choice. Ford played seven seasons in MLB (including the Federal League, which is a little dubious as a major league), but really only five full ones (one in the FL). His first full season, he was 27; his last 31. He threw his last MLB pitch at 32, in the Federal League.

    Even assuming he could still pitch at a major league level going deeper into his thirties, which is seriously dubious considering his age 32 season was basically a bust, due to a "sore arm", (which could have been a lot of debilitating things), and further considering that his most effective pitch, the "emery ball", had been banned...how good would you really project him to be, if he pitched to, say, age 40?

    You said something about the reserve clause...is it possible you're thinking of a different guy? Ford's SABR bio says he retired due to the sore arm and never mentions the reserve clause.
    Yeah, the guy I was thinking of was Ray Fisher. Sorry about that. I somehow blended his and Russ Ford's careers. Fisher is a man with an interesting baseball history, but not a HOFer even in a big hall.More on Fisher here"

    https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/2ab8da34

    The only other banned player I can think of who had a promising enough career was Benny Kauff.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Great lists, fellas! Very enjoyable reading.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    The nature of this thread obviously advocates for a very big hall. In the case of Hal Chase, he was the best first baseman in the game in his era for a time. Russ Ford was banned from the game because of the reserve clause. If you project out his career, assuming a normal decline, he would have had a HOF career. Agreed that Weaver is borderline, but he was definitely talented and unlike Jackson, probably had at least 7-8 years left in him at the time of his ban.
    CHASE

    Hal Chase pretty much got a full career in; he left MLB at age 36 with over 2100 hits. He might have had a couple more seasons in the tank, we'll never know, but he's got a complete resume for evaluation, and it's pretty much lacking, even if you put all the off-field stuff aside.

    Maybe if the HOF existed in 1925, he sneaks in, because there weren't a whole lot of really dominant first basemen up to that point, particularly contemporaneously to Chase's career.

    There were certainly some: Anson, Beckley, Brouthers, Connor, Chance, Sisler, Harry Davis, Stuffy McInnis, Ed Konetchy, Jake Daubert...now that I'm pecking them out, there were more than I thought. But other than McInnis, Daubert & Konetchy, none of these guys' careers overlapped with Chase all that much, if at all. Among those four, call them the first basemen of the 1910's...Chase doesn't appear, at least from the statistical record, to have been as good as the other three, in my judgment. But I'll grant contemporary opinion, with its halcyon tales of his fielding prowess, its due.

    But now? There's probably thirty first basemen, minimum, not in the HOF, who have better on-field Cooperstown cases than Chase.


    WEAVER

    Weaver's career was foreshortened, but we still have a fair bit to go by; he got nine more-or-less full seasons in, which is nothing to sneeze at. And they were nine good seasons. Weaver was 30 when he played his last MLB game. If he'd had nine more seasons like his first nine, or even just six, seven or eight, I think I'd be solidly behind his HOF argument.

    But we only have the nine, and while they were good seasons (as I said above), they weren't exactly transcendent. Going by Mike Trout's first nine seasons, or Albert Pujols, or Joe DiMaggio's...yeah, bronze the plaque right then and there if you have to. But Weaver...I don't think so.

    By Bill James's Similarity Scores (and yeah, I know they're imperfect, but I think they're good enough in this context), his five best comps at age 29 are Bobby Richardson, Willie Randolph, Rennie Stennett, Alfredo Griffin, and Steve Sax.

    Are any of those guys HOFers? Randolph, maybe, but he sure wasn't after his age 29 season, and not everyone is convinced he belongs in the HOF despite playing out his whole career. And there are a slew of reasons to think Randolph was a better player than Weaver ever was, which are obvious enough that I probably don't need to spell them out.

    Alfredo Griffin is the only other shortstop, and he feels like a better fit, although I'll readily aver that when one takes the dead ball era, advanced stats, etc., into account, that Buck Weaver was clearly better.

    So you;ve got a guy who, through a partial career, his twenties, was better than Alfredo Griffin but not as good as Willie Randolph. Does that sound like a HOFer to you?


    RUSS FORD

    This is a very idiosyncratic choice. Ford played seven seasons in MLB (including the Federal League, which is a little dubious as a major league), but really only five full ones (one in the FL). His first full season, he was 27; his last 31. He threw his last MLB pitch at 32, in the Federal League.

    Even assuming he could still pitch at a major league level going deeper into his thirties, which is seriously dubious considering his age 32 season was basically a bust, due to a "sore arm", (which could have been a lot of debilitating things), and further considering that his most effective pitch, the "emery ball", had been banned...how good would you really project him to be, if he pitched to, say, age 40?

    You said something about the reserve clause...is it possible you're thinking of a different guy? Ford's SABR bio says he retired due to the sore arm and never mentions the reserve clause.
    Last edited by Cougar; 11-18-2019, 02:21 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    C
    Charlie Bennett
    Bill Freehan
    Thurman Munson
    Ted Simmons

    1B
    Dick Allen
    Will Clark
    Keith Hernandez
    Fred McGriff
    John Olerud

    2B
    Ross Barnes
    Bobby Grich
    Jeff Kent
    Chase Utley
    Lou Whitaker

    SS
    Bill Dahlen
    Jack Glasscock

    3B
    Ken Boyer
    Graig Nettles

    LF
    Sherry Magee
    Minnie Minoso

    CF
    Pete Browning
    Jim Edmonds
    George Gore
    Paul Hines
    Kenny Lofton
    Dale Murphy
    Bernie Williams

    RF
    Tony Oliva

    P
    Bob Caruthers
    David Cone
    Billy Pierce
    Johan Santana
    Urban Shocker
    Dave Stieb
    Luis Tiant

    wow 100 is going to be tough this is only 30.
    Last edited by PVNICK; 11-19-2019, 04:32 AM. Reason: adding some more names

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    They're not in Rose's class, and not even especially close.

    Based on on-field accomplishments alone, setting aside any "character clause" considerations, those guys are at very best borderline. (And I'm the #BigHall guy.)

    Cicotte has a relatively stronger case, and Shoeless Joe & Charlie Hustle are slam dunks.
    The nature of this thread obviously advocates for a very big hall. In the case of Hal Chase, he was the best first baseman in the game in his era for a time. Russ Ford was banned from the game because of the reserve clause. If you project out his career, assuming a normal decline, he would have had a HOF career. Agreed that Weaver is borderline, but he was definitely talented and unlike Jackson, probably had at least 7-8 years left in him at the time of his ban.

    Leave a comment:


  • JR Hart
    replied
    Great thread

    I love a big hall, but even I had to stretch it to get to 100. But, not by much. Looking at the list, I'd love it if all 100 of these guys went in. at once

    THE JR 100!!
    1B
    Cal McVey 1B
    Carlos Delgado 1B
    Fred McGriff 1B
    Gil Hodges 1B
    Hardy Richardson 2B
    Joe Start 1B
    Keith Hernandez 1B
    Mark McGwire 1B
    Norm Cash 1B
    Rafael Palmeiro 1B
    Steve Garvey 1B
    Will Clark 1B
    2B
    Bobby Grich 2B
    Buddy Myer 2B
    Cupid Childs 2B
    Lou Whitaker 2B
    Ross Barnes 2B
    Willie Randolph 2B
    SS
    Bert Campaneris SS
    Bill Dahlen SS
    Cecil Travis SS
    Dave Concepcion SS
    Dick Groat SS
    Ed McKean SS
    Herman Long SS
    Jack Glasscock SS
    Jim Fregosi SS
    Maury Wills SS
    Nomar Garciaparra SS
    3B
    Bob Elliott 3B
    Buddy Bell 3B
    Dick Allen 3B
    Graig Nettles 3B
    Heinie Groh 3B
    Ken Boyer 3B
    Lave Cross 3B
    Matt Williams 3B
    Sal Bando 3B
    Stan Hack 3B
    LF
    Albert Belle LF
    Bob Johnson LF
    Charlie Keller LF
    Gavvy Cravath LF
    Harry Stovey LF
    Jimmy Sheckard LF
    Lance Berkman LF
    Lip Pike LF
    Minnie Minoso LF
    Sherry Magee LF
    CF
    Bernie Williams CF
    Cesar Cedeno CF
    Dale Murphy CF
    George Gore CF
    George Van Haltren CF
    Jim Edmonds CF
    Jimmy Ryan CF
    Kenny Lofton CF
    Mike Donlin CF
    Paul Hines CF
    Pete Browning CF
    RF
    Babe Herman RF
    Bobby Bonds RF
    Dave Parker RF
    Dwight Evans RF
    Frank Howard RF
    Jose Canseco RF
    Juan Gonzales RF
    Mike Tiernan RF
    Reggie Smith RF
    Roger Maris RF
    Tommy Henrich RF
    Tony Oliva RF
    C
    Bill Freehan C
    Charlie Bennett C
    Elston Howard C
    Ted Simmons C
    Thurman Munson C
    P
    Allie Reynolds P
    Billy Pierce P
    Bob Caruthers P
    Charlie Buffinton P
    Dave Stieb P
    David Cone P
    Don Newcombe P
    Jerry Koosman P
    Jim McCormick P
    Johan Santana P
    Kevin Brown P
    Luis Tiant P
    Mel Harder P
    Orel Hershiser P
    Rick Reuschel P
    Silver King P
    Tommy Bond P
    Tony Mullane P
    Vida Blue P
    RP
    Firpo Marberry RP
    John Franco RP
    Randy Myers RP
    Tug McGraw RP
    Last edited by JR Hart; 11-17-2019, 09:03 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post

    Yeah he's one of those 30 guys that I would feel comfortable swapping out with 90-100. I would still rank Cicotte and Shoeless higher based on a greater peak than Rose.
    I feel like I'm picking on you, and I don't want to, so sorry in advance.

    But...

    Peak is important, but, uh, Hit King? 4200 and change? #2 in doubles too, so he wasn't hitting all bloops and infield grounders.

    And it's not as if Rose didn't have any big seasons...he won a MVP, and came close other times.

    You really want, to just pluck a few names out, Jim Fregosi, Brian Giles, Kevin Appier over Pete blankety-blank Rose?!

    If you're saying no on the gambling, or the underage girlfriend, or the atrocious haircut...I'm with you 100%. But if it's not a character clause exclusion, keeping Rose out based on on-field only is bloody madness.
    Last edited by Cougar; 11-17-2019, 08:10 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    While we're at it, also Buck Weaver, Hal Chase, and Russ Ford as well.
    They're not in Rose's class, and not even especially close.

    Based on on-field accomplishments alone, setting aside any "character clause" considerations, those guys are at very best borderline. (And I'm the #BigHall guy.)

    Cicotte has a relatively stronger case, and Shoeless Joe & Charlie Hustle are slam dunks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Stieb37
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    If you're going to let Joe Jackson & Eddir Cicotte in, then don't you pretty much have to let Pete Rose in too.

    I don't feel strongly either way, but I do think one should be consistent.
    Yeah he's one of those 30 guys that I would feel comfortable swapping out with 90-100. I would still rank Cicotte and Shoeless higher based on a greater peak than Rose.

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    If you're going to let Joe Jackson & Eddir Cicotte in, then don't you pretty much have to let Pete Rose in too.

    I don't feel strongly either way, but I do think one should be consistent.
    While we're at it, also Buck Weaver, Hal Chase, and Russ Ford as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Stieb37 View Post
    It was tough but I went more with what I feel is correct vs favorites.

    Bill Dahlen SS
    Bobby Grich 2B
    Jim Edmonds CF
    Dick Allen 3B
    Johan Santana P
    Charlie Bennett C
    Dobie Moore SS
    Joe Jackson RF
    Bobby Bonds RF
    Jack Glasscock SS
    Sherry Magee LF
    Art Fletcher SS
    Charlie Keller LF
    Ted Simmons C
    Jimmy Sheckard LF
    David Cone P
    Bret Saberhagen P
    Tommy Leach 3B
    Lou Whitaker 2B
    Bob Caruthers P
    Mark McGwire 1B
    Dave Stieb P
    Jimmy Wynn CF
    Keith Hernandez 1B
    Wes Ferrell P
    Pete Browning CF
    Bobby Veach LF
    Graig Nettles 3B
    Reggie Smith RF
    Roy White LF
    Luis Tiant P
    Darrell Evans 3B
    Urban Shocker P
    Eddie Cicotte P
    Dick Lundy SS
    Buddy Bell 3B
    Willie Davis CF
    Lance Berkman LF
    Thurman Munson C
    Minnie Minoso LF
    Billy Pierce P
    Heinie Groh 3B
    Kevin Appier P
    Cupid Childs 2B
    Rick Reuschel P
    Jose Cruz LF
    Bill Freehan C
    Ken Boyer 3B
    Fred Dunlap 2B
    Wally Schang C
    Babe Adams P
    Bob Johnson LF
    Kenny Lofton CF
    Vern Stephens SS
    Hardy Richardson 2B
    Willie Randolph 2B
    Brian Giles RF
    Will Clark 1B
    Grant Johnson SS
    Al Rosen 3B
    Chuck Finley P
    Harry Stovey LF
    Bert Campaneris SS
    Paul Hines CF
    Tony Oliva RF
    Tony Mullane P
    Jack Fournier 1B
    John Beckwith 3B
    Tommy Bond P
    Rafael Palmeiro 1B
    Ross Barnes 2B
    Sal Bando 3B
    Roy Oswalt P
    Wally Berger CF
    Gene Tenace C
    Charlie Buffinton P
    George Gore CF
    Dwight Evans RF
    Jim Fregosi SS
    John Olerud 1B
    Orel Hershiser P
    Dwight Gooden P
    Gil Hodges 1B
    Stan Hack 3B
    Jorge Posada C
    Rocky Colavito RF
    Nomar Garciaparra SS
    Norm Cash 1B
    Fred McGriff 1B
    Quincy Trouppe C
    Albert Belle LF
    Jesse Barfield RF
    Carlos Delgado 1B
    Bernie Williams CF
    Dave Parker RF
    Willie Wilson CF
    Dan Quisenberry P
    Dale Murphy CF
    Tommy John P
    Jim Kaat P




    If you're going to let Joe Jackson & Eddir Cicotte in, then don't you pretty much have to let Pete Rose in too.

    I don't feel strongly either way, but I do think one should be consistent.

    Leave a comment:

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