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  • 1954 Phils
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    John McGraw knew this.



    Adderal and ritalin are in use now. Multiple Angels were on painkillers recreationally and I'm sure they aren't/weren't the only team.
    I thought Beltran could have come back in 2018 and that he retired a year early. I think that "going out as a winner" was a major motivation for him retiring at that point and not trying to stay in the major leagues for another year. He had just had an all-star year with the Yankees in 2016, reaching a slew of milestones in 2016, including 1,500 RBI, 400 HR, and 1,500 R.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    Beltran, may God bless him, was well & truly washed in '17.

    A large part of the story of the disappearance of players in their forties is economic/analytical...teams just aren't willing to pay high salaries to aging guys anymore when they can pay less to a younger guy who might have some future upside.

    There are precious few, if any, older guys worth keeping around solely as gate attractions any longer...Ichiro, maybe, was that kind of an icon, in East Asia as well as North America, but that was as much for his cultural importance as his play.

    No one else really comes to mind. I don't think 21st century baseball fans would want to watch Willie Mays stumbling around the Shea Stadium outfield on the Mets, just to cite one example. People aren't really going to Angels games to see Pujols now, etc.

    But I do wonder if, in addition, the quality of MLB play has improved to a point where virtually no one of an advanced age can really hang in?

    Not a fully formed theory, just kind of thinking out loud.
    John McGraw knew this.

    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    I think that the crack down on the use of greenies has a lot to do with this, combined with advanced analytics and a crackdown on PEDs. It is hard to stay healthy and productive when playing 162 games. Factor in Spring Training and the playoffs and you are talking about over 200 games a year. As one gets older, they wear down quicker and are more susceptible to injuries.

    I also don't think it is a coincidence that most of the oldest players from the game were pitchers. Moyer was productive at age 46 with a WAA of 1.2. Colon had 1.5 WAA at age 43.
    Adderal and ritalin are in use now. Multiple Angels were on painkillers recreationally and I'm sure they aren't/weren't the only team.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1954 Phils
    replied
    Jack Quinn (1883-1946) had 24 1/2 years of continuous major leagues service from 1909 to 1933, beginning just before his 26th birthday and finishing just after his 50th birthday. His last pitching appearance for the 1933 Cincinnati Reds came on July 6, 1933, five days after his 50th birthday. It also occurred on the Reds' first game played after the first-ever major leagues all-star game.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by 1954 Phils View Post

    The White Sox management also wanted to activate Minnie Minoso for one game at the end of the 1993 season after the Frank Thomas and Tim Raines in their primes era White Sox had clinched their division title, but the white sox players threatened to forfeit the game if Minoso played. After all, he was somewhere between 67 and 70 at that time (depending on which version of Minnie's age you chose to believe). The White Sox players said that to even allow Minoso one plate appearance at his age in an official major league game would be a farce, so Minoso was never added to the roster.
    I respect them for that.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1954 Phils
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    True, but Paige's appearance at age 59 was really just a 3 inning publicity stunt (during which he nevertheless performed well, granted).

    The same applies to Minnie Minoso's stints in 1976 & 1980, when he was somewhere north of 50. (As most here probably know, Minoso's birth year is disputed.)

    Franco is really the only position player to be a legit contributor on a MLB roster in his late forties. (Unless I'm forgetting someone.) Hoyt Wilhelm, Jack Quinn, & Jamie Moyer were pitchers that were significant players in that age range.
    The White Sox management also wanted to activate Minnie Minoso for one game at the end of the 1993 season after the Frank Thomas and Tim Raines in their primes era White Sox had clinched their division title, but the white sox players threatened to forfeit the game if Minoso played. After all, he was somewhere between 67 and 70 at that time (depending on which version of Minnie's age you chose to believe). The White Sox players said that to even allow Minoso one plate appearance at his age in an official major league game would be a farce, so Minoso was never added to the roster.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    I think that the crack down on the use of greenies has a lot to do with this, combined with advanced analytics and a crackdown on PEDs. It is hard to stay healthy and productive when playing 162 games. Factor in Spring Training and the playoffs and you are talking about over 200 games a year. As one gets older, they wear down quicker and are more susceptible to injuries.

    I also don't think it is a coincidence that most of the oldest players from the game were pitchers. Moyer was productive at age 46 with a WAA of 1.2. Colon had 1.5 WAA at age 43.
    Right. And that's always been the case. Players in their forties, particularly productive players in their forties are virtually unheard of outside of pitchers (and not many of them either).

    If MLB hasn't fully realized what Cougar discusses, it's well on its way and that's good for the game. I'm saddened that the MLBPA hasn't caught onto this and instead seeks to construct a straw horse of collusion to explain that old men don't get paid like they used to.

    Leave a comment:


  • pedrosrotatorcuff
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    People go to Angels games for any reason?
    I imagine it's the same mindset as having gone to Clippers instead of Lakers games before this season.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    Beltran, may God bless him, was well & truly washed in '17.

    A large part of the story of the disappearance of players in their forties is economic/analytical...teams just aren't willing to pay high salaries to aging guys anymore when they can pay less to a younger guy who might have some future upside.

    There are precious few, if any, older guys worth keeping around solely as gate attractions any longer...Ichiro, maybe, was that kind of an icon, in East Asia as well as North America, but that was as much for his cultural importance as his play.

    No one else really comes to mind. I don't think 21st century baseball fans would want to watch Willie Mays stumbling around the Shea Stadium outfield on the Mets, just to cite one example. People aren't really going to Angels games to see Pujols now, etc.

    But I do wonder if, in addition, the quality of MLB play has improved to a point where virtually no one of an advanced age can really hang in?

    Not a fully formed theory, just kind of thinking out loud.
    People go to Angels games for any reason?

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    But I do wonder if, in addition, the quality of MLB play has improved to a point where virtually no one of an advanced age can really hang in?

    Not a fully formed theory, just kind of thinking out loud.
    I think that the crack down on the use of greenies has a lot to do with this, combined with advanced analytics and a crackdown on PEDs. It is hard to stay healthy and productive when playing 162 games. Factor in Spring Training and the playoffs and you are talking about over 200 games a year. As one gets older, they wear down quicker and are more susceptible to injuries.

    I also don't think it is a coincidence that most of the oldest players from the game were pitchers. Moyer was productive at age 46 with a WAA of 1.2. Colon had 1.5 WAA at age 43.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 11-23-2019, 07:33 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    Franco is the only player in history with 100+ PA in a season after the age of 45. He is one of just four with 100+ PA in his age-45 season. (Two of the other three were player-managers.)

    It may surprise some, but even today, production in one's 40's is exceedingly rare. Heck, a player in his 40's has only qualified for the batting title 67 times in MLB history, the last being Carlos Beltran in 2017.
    Beltran, may God bless him, was well & truly washed in '17.

    A large part of the story of the disappearance of players in their forties is economic/analytical...teams just aren't willing to pay high salaries to aging guys anymore when they can pay less to a younger guy who might have some future upside.

    There are precious few, if any, older guys worth keeping around solely as gate attractions any longer...Ichiro, maybe, was that kind of an icon, in East Asia as well as North America, but that was as much for his cultural importance as his play.

    No one else really comes to mind. I don't think 21st century baseball fans would want to watch Willie Mays stumbling around the Shea Stadium outfield on the Mets, just to cite one example. People aren't really going to Angels games to see Pujols now, etc.

    But I do wonder if, in addition, the quality of MLB play has improved to a point where virtually no one of an advanced age can really hang in?

    Not a fully formed theory, just kind of thinking out loud.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

    I thought that when Minnie Minoso tried to sign a 1 day deal in the 1990s, the commissioner at the time blocked him from being able to do so.

    EDIT: Found the story:

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...872-story.html
    Yes, I remember that.

    I think he ended up getting a couple of at-bats for some independent minor league team. He did something similar in the 2000s. Just got to be his thing, I guess.

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    True, but Paige's appearance at age 59 was really just a 3 inning publicity stunt (during which he nevertheless performed well, granted).

    The same applies to Minnie Minoso's stints in 1976 & 1980, when he was somewhere north of 50. (As most here probably know, Minoso's birth year is disputed.)

    Franco is really the only position player to be a legit contributor on a MLB roster in his late forties. (Unless I'm forgetting someone.) Hoyt Wilhelm, Jack Quinn, & Jamie Moyer were pitchers that were significant players in that age range.
    I thought that when Minnie Minoso tried to sign a 1 day deal in the 1990s, the commissioner at the time blocked him from being able to do so.

    EDIT: Found the story:

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...872-story.html
    Last edited by jjpm74; 11-22-2019, 05:26 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    Franco is the only player in history with 100+ PA in a season after the age of 45. He is one of just four with 100+ PA in his age-45 season. (Two of the other three were player-managers.)

    It may surprise some, but even today, production in one's 40's is exceedingly rare. Heck, a player in his 40's has only qualified for the batting title 67 times in MLB history, the last being Carlos Beltran in 2017.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by pedrosrotatorcuff View Post
    It wouldn't be unprecendented in the general sense–Satchel Paige was 59 when he pitched his last game. He might have a tough time catching up to all those fastballs, though.
    True, but Paige's appearance at age 59 was really just a 3 inning publicity stunt (during which he nevertheless performed well, granted).

    The same applies to Minnie Minoso's stints in 1976 & 1980, when he was somewhere north of 50. (As most here probably know, Minoso's birth year is disputed.)

    Franco is really the only position player to be a legit contributor on a MLB roster in his late forties. (Unless I'm forgetting someone.) Hoyt Wilhelm, Jack Quinn, & Jamie Moyer were pitchers that were significant players in that age range.

    Leave a comment:


  • pedrosrotatorcuff
    replied
    It wouldn't be unprecendented in the general sense–Satchel Paige was 59 when he pitched his last game. He might have a tough time catching up to all those fastballs, though.

    Leave a comment:

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