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Playoff Hall of Fame project, group 51

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  • #16
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    Keefe blows Plank out of the water.
    Yeah, he was pretty good for a guy who played almost entirely because the modern pitching distance before the advent of pitching rotations, before the batter-pitcher count was set at 3 strikes and 4 balls for an out or walk. Pretty good indeed.
    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
      Yeah, he was pretty good for a guy who played almost entirely because the modern pitching distance before the advent of pitching rotations, before the batter-pitcher count was set at 3 strikes and 4 balls for an out or walk. Pretty good indeed.
      Is this intentionally obtuse?

      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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      • #18
        Not at all. I'm pointing out the fact that Keefe earned his value under radically different circumstances, such that I don't agree that Keefe "blows Plank out of the water".
        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

          Keefe blows Plank out of the water.
          How do you figure that? Keefe played most of his career in the shorter pitching distance era and the two have career stats that are virtually identical. Plank played in a more competitive era and to this day still ranks in the top 10-15 pitchers of all time.

          EDIT: Didn;t see this before posting and I completely agree with it:

          Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
          Yeah, he was pretty good for a guy who played almost entirely because the modern pitching distance before the advent of pitching rotations, before the batter-pitcher count was set at 3 strikes and 4 balls for an out or walk. Pretty good indeed.
          Last edited by jjpm74; 11-11-2019, 07:14 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

            How do you figure that? Keefe played most of his career in the shorter pitching distance era and the two have career stats that are virtually identical. Plank played in a more competitive era and to this day still ranks in the top 10-15 pitchers of all time.

            EDIT: Didn;t see this before posting and I completely agree with it:
            If you're into arbitrarily ignoring players because you don't like the era. I think I'll start ignoring everyone pre-1947 since it was before integration, the lowering of the mound, modern parks, westward expansion, specialized relief pitching, film study, batting helmets, hinged gloves, mass popularization of switch hitting. What a dumb hill to die on.
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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            • #21
              1. Larry Walker
              2. Ellis Burks
              3. David Wells
              4. Carl Yastrzemski
              5. Mickey Cochrane
              6. Eddie Plank
              7. Jimmy Collins
              8. Tim Keefe
              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                If you're into arbitrarily ignoring players because you don't like the era. I think I'll start ignoring everyone pre-1947 since it was before integration, the lowering of the mound, modern parks, westward expansion, specialized relief pitching, film study, batting helmets, hinged gloves, mass popularization of switch hitting. What a dumb hill to die on.
                I'm not arbitrarily ignoring anyone. Plank accomplished virtually the same thing Keefe did in the era of the modern pitching distance. That is much harder to do. Therefore, he is a much better pitcher than Keefe. Is that simplified enough for you?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                  1. Larry Walker
                  2. Ellis Burks
                  3. David Wells
                  4. Carl Yastrzemski
                  5. Mickey Cochrane
                  6. Eddie Plank
                  7. Jimmy Collins
                  8. Tim Keefe
                  This ballot is beyond defense as serious, I believe. It seems meant as mockery. If you wish to defend it in detail as reasonable, I will listen, but unless you do so convincingly, this ballot will not count.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jalbright View Post

                    This ballot is beyond defense as serious, I believe. It seems meant as mockery. If you wish to defend it in detail as reasonable, I will listen, but unless you do so convincingly, this ballot will not count.
                    It is definitely not serious on his part. See here. He is mad because chadwick and myself disagree with the idea that Keefe "blows plank out of the water":

                    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                    If you're into arbitrarily ignoring players because you don't like the era. I think I'll start ignoring everyone pre-1947 since it was before integration, the lowering of the mound, modern parks, westward expansion, specialized relief pitching, film study, batting helmets, hinged gloves, mass popularization of switch hitting. What a dumb hill to die on.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      1. Yastrzemski- a top 30 position player trumps a top 20-25 pitcher
                      2. Plank
                      3. Keefe- I really hate having to deal with these early guys
                      4. Cochrane- almost in a dead heat with
                      5. Walker
                      6. Collins
                      7.Burks
                      8. Wells
                      Last edited by BigRon; 11-11-2019, 09:00 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        1. Eddie Plank - one of the best ever, who history has sadly (mostly) forgotten! I've got him in my top 12-18 with other names such as Whitey Ford, Bob Feller, Jim Palmer, Pedro Martinez and Bob Gibson! Highly underrated by the general populace!
                        2. Carl Yastrzemski
                        3. Tim Keefe
                        4. Mickey Cochrane
                        5. Larry Walker
                        6. Jimmy Collins

                        --HOF line---
                        ---Big HOF line---

                        7. Ellis Burks
                        8. David Wells - one of the worst teammates in White Sox history. He's below Burks before clubhouse chemistry is included, and ranks even further below once chemistry is included.
                        Last edited by Toledo Inquisition; 11-11-2019, 08:57 AM.
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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jalbright View Post

                          This ballot is beyond defense as serious, I believe. It seems meant as mockery. If you wish to defend it in detail as reasonable, I will listen, but unless you do so convincingly, this ballot will not count.
                          I already defended it and will continue to.

                          Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                          1. Yastrzemski
                          2. Plank
                          3. Keefe- I really hate having to deal with these early guys
                          4. Cochrane- almost in a dead heat with
                          5. Walker
                          6. Collins
                          7.Burks
                          8. Wells
                          BigRon speaking honestly chooses not to deride an entire era of the sport like a petulant child because he doesn't know much about it.
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                            I already defended it and will continue to.



                            BigRon speaking honestly chooses not to deride an entire era of the sport like a petulant child because he doesn't know much about it.
                            I already presented my reason for ranking Plank ahead of Keefe and your antics are getting really old. If you can't figure out why people disagree with you, you know where the door is.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Toledo Inquisition View Post
                              1
                              8. David Wells - one of the worst teammates in White Sox history. He's below Burks before clubhouse chemistry is included, and ranks even further below once chemistry is included.
                              Please share on Wells, he's an under the radar candidate for me for HOF consideration, at least BIG HOF worthy.
                              Wells has a similar candidacy to Buehrle, ~10% > average for ~3400 era adjusted IP, Buehrle in arguably tougher leagues, Wells with more relief leverage credit, post season and clutch credentials, both with perfect games.
                              Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                                Please share on Wells, he's an under the radar candidate for me for HOF consideration, at least BIG HOF worthy.
                                Wells has a similar candidacy to Buehrle, ~10% > average for ~3400 era adjusted IP, Buehrle in arguably tougher leagues, Wells with more relief leverage credit, post season and clutch credentials, both with perfect games.
                                When Wells was on the Yankees, MLB tried to suspend him for trying to wear Babe Ruth's baseball cap in a Yankee game. He is also the only pitcher I can recall who had to miss a start because of chronic gout. I can't speak for his Sox days, but he is loved in New York.

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