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Playoff Hall of Fame project, group 54

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  • Playoff Hall of Fame project, group 54

    Playoff HOF rules

    1. This project will start with 512 major leaguers selected by me. I started with the top 500 in BBref WAR, sorted out the guys who hadn’t retired, and added in major leaguers who made the actual Hall or who made it in some of our shadow hall projects. I added a few other suggestions and changes, and went with those 512

    2. Those 512 were organized randomly into 64 groups of eight. I’d prefer voters to rank them 1 through 8, with each player getting 8 points minus his ranking. I will accept votes that only name the four they think are the best HOF candidates out of the group. In that instance, the four named will be counted as being in fourth place, the other four as being in fifth place. This last provision is meant to help increase participation. I envision each election taking only one week, though in cases of holidays or other issues, I reserve the right to extend that time.

    3. I will go through the entire first round before proceeding to the second, the entire second before proceeding to the third and so forth. In the first round, four from each group will go on into the 1-0 bracket, and four will go on to the 0-1 bracket. That will yield 256 in each half.

    4. For the second round, we will start with the winners bracket. Half, or 128 will go to the group of 2-0 players. The other half will drop into the group of 1-1 players. Then we’ll get to the losers bracket. The winners will also go into the 1-1 bracket, yielding 256 players in that group. The guys in the first group who are 1-0 and then lose in the second round will fill in in four spots in the 32nd group of 1-1 players, then the second group of 1-0 guys to lose to go into the 1-1 pool will go into the 31st group and so forth to avoid as much as possible facing the same guys multiple times. The winners of the first 0-1 group will fill in the remaining four spots in the first 1-1 group, the winners of the second 0-1 group will fill in the remaining four spots of the second 1-1 group and so forth. The losers of the 0-1 group will fall to the 0-2 group.

    5. For the third round, the winners of the 2-0 group are inducted, and the losers of the 0-2 group are eliminated. That’s 64 in each of the inducted and eliminated groups. The losers of the 2-0 group go to the 2-1 group, which will provide 64 of the 192 players in the 2-1 group. The other 128 will come from the winners of the 1-1 group. I will assign the losers from the 2-0 group starting in the 12th group of 2-1 players and then filling in every third slot until they’re filled, again to try and minimize facing too many of the same players faced in earlier rounds. I will do the same thing for the winners of the 0-2 among the 1-2 players

    6. For the fourth round, the winners of the 2-1 group (96 of them) will be inducted, driving the total up to 160 inductees. Similarly, the losers of the 1-2 group are eliminated, meaning 160 of the original 512 are now out. The remaining 192 will be in the 2-2 group. For the 2-2 group, the first 2-1 losers will be in the first 2-2 group, the second 2-1 losers in the second 2-2 group, and so on. For the 1-2 winners, the first group goes to the 24th 2-2 group, the second to the 23rd, and so on.

    7. The 96 losers of the fifth round will be saved as reserves in case we need to replenish the pool of players when we go annual. The 96 winners of the 2-2 round will compete in the sixth round. The 48 winners of that round are inducted to bring us to 208 inductees. The 48 losers of the 3-2 round will compete in the seventh round. The 24 winners of the seventh round are inducted, which will get us 232 MLB inductees.. The 24 losers will be the first players to populate the pool to use against retired players.

    8. I will keep a list of the 12 players who went in as third or fourth place candidates in the seventh round as a reference for my two VCs, one for Japanese players, the other for players in a wide definition of Negro Leagues including any league with large numbers of Negro Leaguers, such as Mexico in the 1940’s, Cuba into the integration years, the Puerto Rican Winter League, the 1937 Dominican League, and so forth

    9. The point of this reference is that the middle of those 12 names should be used as one point of reference for what the floor should be considered to be for the VC selections. I will keep a list of the sixth third place candidates from the sixth fourth placers to aid people in determining where that middle point is. I will mandate that a minimum of five Japanese players must be inducted, and twelve Negro Leaguers. However, I will allow the VC voters to determine how many of the players in each group presented to them are over the floor level represented by the middle of the last 12 inductees list. I will add up the average number of candidates the VC members believe are over that floor for all groups in the category (Negro Leagues or Japan), and if it is higher than my mandated floor, that is how many candidates from that category will be inducted. If not, the mandated floor will be use,

    10. The VCs will have a playoff ranking within the category much like was used for the major leaguers. I will have to adjust the numbers to fit the number of inductees we determine and the number of candidates I offer to the VC.

    11. I won’t worry about ties except where they straddle the line between winners and losers in a group. In that case, the tie goes to the candidate getting the most first place votes, then the most second place, and so on to the last place in the group. If that does not break the tie, there will be a runoff election. If that remains tied, random selection methods such as coin flips or high card will be used to break the tie

    12. A quorum for the major leaguers will be six votes. I suspect I would accept a quorum of four for the VC groups

    13. People may vote on only the major leaguers if they wish. People may choose to only participate in one or both VCs. They may participate in the MLB players and only one VC or they may be part of all three.

    14. The VCs will follow the selection of the first 232 MLB players. I will probably select some players who are not selected by the VCs to be put in the pool, and maybe some others to be placed among the reserves. Until the number of inductees are determined for the VC groups, this decision will have to be put on hold.

    15. One issue is player/managers. It will be up to the individual voter on players to determine how much credit for managing the voter wishes to give the person for managing at the same time he played, with the instruction that if he was a part time player the credit given should be smaller than if he was full time. If he wasn't playing or just getting a few ABs, the managing credit should be minimal that year in the player vote. However, this project is exclusively about players, so if a man managed after his playing days, that managing should not be considered. The essential standrad is how the player (emphasis on the word player, but a player/manager's contributions may be considered as noted above) helps his team win on the field.

    16. I will put the lists I intend to use for the VCs out in advance of the deliberations of those groups to permit discussion of possible additions or omissions on my part. My reason for not doing so now is I expect additional research to take place between now and the time we’re close to getting to the VCs, and I’d prefer to come up with the final list only once, and in this environment, it should come closer to the end of the MLB group than now to allow for the insights from that research to be included.

    17. It seems certain there will be retirements and/or deaths of players between now and the end of the VC deliberations. Once the VCs are done, we will put those players in the pool and select two for each season to have passed since the beginning of this project. Once that is done, we will go annual, electing two per year from the pool.

    18. If we get over 40 players in the pool, we will have a playoff to cut the number to 30. One way we will use to avoid playoffs is to cut players from the pool is to drop players from the pool to the reserves if they fail to make the final election for inductees three times. Once that happens, they will be ineligible to return to the pool for three years. If the pool drops below 12 names, we will have a playoff for the candidates in the reserves to bring the list back up to at least 24 names in the pool. If there is a playoff among the reserves, I will probably cut the number of reserves to no more than 48.

    19. I will maintain lists of the inductees, those in the pool, and those in the reserves, I will also have available a post of the current round and the round to come for the information of participants

    20. This project is open to everyone member of Fever in good standing who has not been barred from similar projects.

    21. You have to rank all the players in the group. One omission from the group would be plugged in at 8th if I cannot get the voter to correct it on his or her own. If there are two or more open spaces, the ballot cannot be counted. If a voter sees fit to put PED guys or gambling-tainted players at the bottom of the list, that's within his or her prerogative.

    22. I will promise to count changes to your ballot if you 1) make the change less than five minutes before I close the balloting (I won't do it before 7 am Saturday without notice of an intent to do otherwise)., and 2) either PM me or post in the thread to notify me of the change. If you do not do the second, I'll try to keep up with changes, but I will not guarantee it. The first condition has no exceptions.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    Here's the first two rounds of the brackets:
    ...
    Code:
     
    1 1-0/01
    Lou Gehrig Lou Gehrig
    Addie Joss Billy Williams
    Billy Williams Lefty Grove
    Lefty Grove Mickey Mantle
    Ernie Lombardi George Davis
    Mickey Mantle Derek Jeter
    Fred Tenney Kirby Puckett
    Charlie Bennett Hughie Jennings
    2 1-0/02
    Silver King Kevin Brown
    Charlie Buffinton Jim Bunning
    Mark Belanger Bob Feller
    Hughie Jennings Joe Start
    Dolph Camilli Bobby Bonds
    Kirby Puckett Pete Browning
    George Davis Gary Carter
    Derek Jeter Dolf Luque
    3 1-0/03
    Kevin Brown Bucky Walters
    Jim Kaat Pie Traynor
    Jim Bunning Kevin Appier
    Chuck Finley Hardy Richardson
    Doug DeCinces Johnny Bench
    Bob Feller Arky Vaughan
    Charley Jones Willie Stargell
    Joe Start Bobby Wallace
    4 1-0/04
    Bobby Bonds Pete Alexander
    Harry Hooper Wade Boggs
    Pete Browning Hoyt Wilhelm
    Roger Maris George Wright
    Gene Tenace Eddie Mathews
    Bill Nicholson Chipper Jones
    Gary Carter Rod Carew
    Dolf Luque Barry Larkin
    5 1-0/05
    Pie Traynor Babe Ruth
    Bucky Walters Ted Williams
    Dutch Leonard Andre Dawson
    Nap Rucker Don Sutton
    Jack Chesbro Joe DiMaggio
    Jason Kendall Gaylord Perry
    Kevin Appier Luke Appling
    Hardy Richardson Dwight Gooden
    6 1-0/06
    Tony Fernandez Roger Connor
    Sammy Sosa Harry Heilmann
    Willie Stargell Vada Pinson
    Max Carey Nomar Garciaparra
    Arky Vaughan Randy Johnson
    Johnny Bench Duke Snider
    Bobby Wallace Carl Hubbell
    Cupid Childs Enos Slaughter
    7 1-0/07
    Jorge Posada George Brett
    Sam Thompson Joe Gordon
    George Wright Ted Lyons
    Chief Bender Tim Raines
    Pete Alexander Hank Aaron
    Hoyt Wilhelm Jackie Robinson
    Wade Boggs David Ortiz
    Jack Morris Johm Montgomery Ward
    8 1-0/08
    Roy White Barry Bonds
    Harold Baines Carlton Fisk
    Gil McDougald Phil Niekro
    Rod Carew Reggie Smith
    Billy Herman Bob Johnson
    Eddie Mathews Walter Johnson
    Chipper Jones Jeff Kent
    Barry Larkin Vic Willis
    9 1-0/09
    Andre Dawson Lou Brock
    Babe Ruth Monte Irvin
    Cliff Lee Eddie Murray
    Clark Griffith Al Spalding
    Ted Williams Nolan Ryan
    Don Sutton Chase Utley
    Bret Saberhagen Lou Whitaker
    Lave Cross Cy Young
    10 1-0/10
    Gaylord Perry Ken Boyer
    Noodles Hahn Cesar Cedeno
    Joe DiMaggio Eddie Collins
    Luke Appling Rube Waddell
    Dwight Gooden Ty Cobb
    Doc White Sandy Koufax
    Rocky Colavito Rafael Palmiero
    George Foster Red Ruffing
    11 1-0/11
    Larry Gardner Dick Allen
    Vada Pinson Lance Berkman
    Bert Campaneris Paul Molitor
    Mark Buehrle` Jim O'Rourke
    Torii Hunter King Kelly
    Nomar Garciaparra Chuck Klein
    Harry Heilmann Cal Ripken Jr
    Roger Connor Jimmy Wynn
    12 1-0/12
    Tony Oliva Sam Crawford
    Randy Johnson Roger Clemens
    Buddy Bell Dave Stieb
    Enos Slaughter Wally Schang
    Dizzy Trout Burleigh Grimes
    John McGraw Greg Maddux
    Duke Snider Juan Marichal
    Carl Hubbell Sam Rice
    13 1-0/13
    Ted Lyons Joe Cronin
    Vern Stephens Joe McGinnity
    Joe Gordon Luis Tiant Jr
    Allie Reynolds Miguel Tejada
    George Brett Dizzy Dean
    Tim Raines Elmer Flick
    Tony Lazzeri Ralph Kiner
    John Candelaria Alex Rodriguez
    14 1-0/14
    Brian Giles Jesse Burkett
    Jackie Robinson Bob Lemon
    Bob Welch Jim Palmer
    David Ortiz Curt Schilling
    Curt Flood Ross Barnes
    Hank Aaron Jimmie Foxx
    John Montgomery Ward Rickey Henderson
    Darry Strawberry Reggie Jackson
    15 1-0/15
    Reggie Smith Babe Adams
    Norm Cash Albert Belle
    Roger Bresnahan Heinie Groh
    Travis Jackson Mark McGwire
    Carlton Fisk Craig Biggio
    Phil Niekro Roberto Clemente
    Ezra Sutton Charlie Gehringer
    Barry Bonds Joe Torre
    16 1-0/16
    Mike Smith Roberto Alomar
    Will Clarke Frank Baker
    Brett Butler Joe Morgan
    Jeff Kent Al Simmons
    Eppa Rixey David Cone
    Bob Johnson Johnny Pesky
    Vic Willis Old Hoss Radbourn
    Walter Johnson Robin Yount
    17 1-0/17
    Luis Gonzalez Lou Boudreau
    Eddie Murray Don Drysdale
    Rick Ferrell Tim Hudson
    Ned Garver Sherry Magee
    Al Spalding Jim Edmonds
    Lou Brock Bob Gibson
    Monte Irvin Fergie Jenkins
    Schoolboy Rowe Nap LaJoie
    18 1-0/18
    Nolan Ryan Kenny Lofton
    Tommy Bond Carl Mays
    Sad Sam Jones Al Rosen
    Lou Whitaker Dazzy Vance
    Cy Young Dan Brouthers
    Ken Singleton Manny Ramirez
    Chase Utley Frank Thomas
    Gary Gaetti Paul Waner
    19 1-0/19
    Ken Boyer John Clarkson
    Davey Lopes Harmon Killebrew
    Cesar Cedeno Pedro Martinez
    Del Pratt Honus Wagner
    George Kell Wally Berger
    Larry Jackson Whitey Ford
    Eddie Collins Edd Roush
    Rube Waddell Ed Walsh
    20 1-0/20
    Red Ruffing Edgar Martinez
    Rusty Staub Don Mattingly
    Ty Cobb Frank Viola
    Carlos Delgado Hack Wilson
    Joe Kelley Roy Campanella
    Rafael Palmiero Larry Doby
    Buddy Myer Willie Keeler
    Sandy Koufax Rick Reuschel
    21 1-0/21
    Jim O'Rourke Mordecai Brown
    jerry Koosman Frank Robinson
    Harry Stovey Ivan Rodriguez
    Joe Tinker Jim Sundberg
    Lance Berkman Bill Dickey
    Paul Molitor Frankie Frisch
    Dick Allen Ron Santo
    Luis Aparicio Deacon White
    22 1-0/22
    Jimmy Wynn Orlando Cepeda
    Dixie Walker Wes Ferrell
    Hugh Duffy Amos Otis
    King Kelly Carlos Zambrano
    Ron Guidry Andruw Jones
    Chuck Klein Tony Mullane
    Jimmy Rollins Amos Rusie
    Cal Ripken, Jr. Alan Trammell
    23 1-0/23
    Sam Crawford Earl Averill
    Catfish Hunter Jose Cruz
    Ben Chapman Dwight Evans
    Wally Schang Mel Ott
    Rabbit Maranville Richie Ashburn
    Eddie Ciccotte Ed Delahanty
    Roger Clemens Bid McPhee
    Dave Steib Andy Pettite
    24 1-0/24
    Juan Marichal Tony Gwynn
    Curt Simmons Pee Wee Reese
    Greg Maddux Ted Simmons
    Jimmy Sheckard George Sisler
    Jamie Moyer Steve Carlton
    Burleigh Grimes Joe Medwick
    Mark Grace Kid Nichols
    Sam Rice Ozzie Smith
    25 1-0/25
    Gavvy Cravath Bert Blyleven
    Cy Seymour Jim Fregosi
    Joe Cronin Charlie Keller
    George Mullin Dave Winfield
    Miguel Tejada Jeff Bagwell
    Luis Tiant Jr Rogers Hornsby
    Joe McGinnity Thurman Munson
    Ed Konetchy Hal Newhouser
    26 1-0/26
    Chuck Knoblauch Mickey Cochrane
    Dizzy Dean Tim Keefe
    Alex Rodriguez Eddie Plank
    Graig Nettles Carl Yastrzemski
    Art Fletcher Fred Clarke
    Ralph Kiner Stan Coveleski
    Ross Youngs John Smoltz
    Elmer Flick Jim Thome
    27 1-0/27
    Jesse Burkett Billy Hamilton
    Larry French Paul Hines
    Bob Lemon Tony Phillips
    Jim Palmer Jim Rice
    Mickey Welch w54
    Sam Leever
    Jose Canseco
    Curt Schilling
    28 1-0/28
    Bobby Doerr w55
    Jimmie Foxx
    Ross Barnes
    Jack Quinn
    Bob Caruthers w56
    Rickey Henderson
    Jack Stivetts
    Reggie Jackson
    29 1-0/29
    Mark McGwire w57
    Babe Adams
    Albert Belle
    Tommy Leach
    Kiki Cuyler w58
    Heinie Groh
    Bobby Veach
    Claude Osteen
    30 1-0/30
    Lip Pike w59
    Mel Harder
    Trevor Hoffman
    Charlie Gehringer
    Roberto Clemente w60
    Joe Torre
    Craig Biggio
    Dave Parker
    31 1-0/31
    Frank (Home Run) Baker w61
    Roberto Alomar
    Willie Randolph
    Joe Morgan
    Billy Pierce w62
    Rube Marquard
    Al Simmons
    Gil Hodges
    32 1-0/32
    Fred Dunlap w63
    Robin Yount
    Toby Harrah
    Heinie Manush
    Johnny Pesky w64
    David Cone
    Old Hoss Radbourn
    Brian Downing
    33 0-1/01
    Johnny Evers Addie Joss
    Tim Hudson Ernie Lombardi
    Sherry Magee Fred Tenney
    Wilbur Wood Charlie Bennett
    Waite Hoyt Charlie Buffinton
    Matt Williams Dolph Camilli
    Lou Boudreau Silver King
    Don Drysdale Mark Belanger
    34 0-1/02
    Chet Lemon Jim Kaat
    George Uhle Chuck Finley
    Jim Edmonds Doug DeCinces
    Ken Williams Charley Jones
    Nap LaJoie Harry Hooper
    Ferguson Jenkins Roger Maris
    Bob Gibson Bill Nicholson
    Tommy McCarthy Gene Tenace
    35 0-1/03
    Cal McVey Jack Chesbro
    Kenny Lofton Jason Kendall
    Dazzy Vance Dutch (E) Leonard
    Al Orth Nap Rucker
    Al Rosen Sammy Sosa
    Kenny Rogers Max Carey
    Carl Mays Cupid Childs
    Rollie Fingers Tony Fernandez
    36 0-1/04
    John Olerud Chief Bender
    Javier Vazquez Jack Morris
    Jake Beckley Jorge Posada
    Frank Thomas Sam Thompson
    Dan Brouthers Billy Herman
    Al Oliver Harold Baines
    Paul Waner Gil McDougald
    Manny Ramirez Roy White
    37 0-1/05
    Johan Santana Bret Saberhagen
    Harmon Killebrew Clark Griffith
    Jack Glasscock Lave Cross
    Nellie Fox Cliff Lee
    John Clarkson Rocky Colavito
    Steve Garvey Noodles Hahn
    Honus Wagner George Foster
    Pedro Martinez Doc White
    38 0-1/06
    Ed Walsh Bert Campaneris
    Jim Whitney Mark Buehrle
    Whitey Ford Torii Hunter
    Bill Donovan Larry Gardner
    Fernando Valenzuela Tony Oliva
    Edd roush Buddy Bell
    Wally Berger John McGraw
    Jesse Haines Dizzy Trout
    39 0-1/07
    Don Mattingly John Candelaria
    Hack Wilson Tony Lazzeri
    Mike Cameron Allie Reynolds
    Eddie Rommel Vern Stephens
    Edgar Martinez Curt Flood
    John Hiller Brian Giles
    Frank Viola Darryl Strawberry
    Dave Concepcion Bob Welch
    40 0-1/08
    Claude Passeau Roger Bresnahan
    Dennis Martinez Norm Cash
    George Peckinpaugh Travis Jackson
    Phil Rizzuto Ezra Sutton
    Rick Reuschel Brett Butler
    Larry Doby Will Clark
    Roy Campanella Eppa Rixey
    Willie Keeler Mike Smith
    41 0-1/09
    Ivan Rodriguez Rick Ferrell
    Jim Sundberg Ned Garver
    Mordecai Brown Luis Gonzalez
    Frank Robinson Schoolgoy Rowe
    Steve Rogers Tommy Bond
    Devon White Gary Gaetti
    Jack Fournier Sad Sam Jones
    Brad Radke Ken Singleton
    42 0-1/10
    Al Dark Larry Jackson
    Frankie Frisch George Kell
    Bob Elliott Davey Lopes
    Jim McCormick Del Pratt
    Orlando Hernandez Carlos Delgado
    Ron Santo Joe Kelley
    Bill Dickey Buddy Myer
    Deacon White Rusty Staub
    43 0-1/11
    Orlando Cepeda Luis Aparicio
    Murry Dickson Jerry Koosman
    Wes Ferrell Harry Stovey
    Amos Otis Joe Tinker
    Carlos Zambrano Hugh Duffy
    George Kelly Ron Guidry
    Bob Shawkey Jimmy Rollins
    Ray Schalk Dixie Walker
    44 0-1/12
    Omar Vizquel Ben Chapman
    Alan Trammell Eddie Ciccotte
    Herb Pennock Catfish Hunter
    Mike Griffin Rabbit Maranville
    George Van Haltren Mark Grace
    Tony Mullane Jamie Moyer
    Andruw Jones Jimmy Sheckard
    Amos Rusie Curt Simmons
    45 0-1/13
    Lee Smith Gavvy Cravath
    Earl Averill Ed Konetchy
    Dan Quisenberry George Mullin
    Mel Ott Cy Seymour
    Red Lucas Art Fletcher
    Felipe Alou Chuck Knoblauch
    Jose Cruz Graig Nettles
    Dwight Evans Ross Youngs
    46 0-1/14
    Earle Combs Jose Canseco
    Freddie Lindstrom Larry French
    Bid McPhee Sam Leever
    Richie Ashburn Mickey Welch
    Ed Delahanty Bob Caruthers
    Red Schoendienst Bobby Doerr
    Andy Pettitte Jack Quinn
    Jack Clark Jack Stivetts
    47 0-1/15
    Tony Gwynn Kiki Cuyler
    Goose Gossage Tommy Leach
    George Sisler Claude Osteen
    Stan Hack Bobby Veach
    Sal Bando Mel Harder
    Pee Wee Reese Trevor Hoffman
    Ted Simmons Dave Parker
    John Franco Lip Pike
    48 0-1/16
    Ted Breitenstein Gil Hodges
    Steve Carlton Rube Marquard
    Darrell Evans Billy Pierce
    Andy Van Slyke Willie Randolph
    Ozzie Smith Brian Downing
    Kid Nichols Fred Dunlap
    Tony Perez Toby Harrah
    Joe Medwick Heinie Manush
    49 0-1/17
    Chick Hafey Johnny Evers
    Dave Winfield Waite Hoyt
    Bert Blyleven Matt Williams
    Bobo Newsom Wilbur Wood
    Maury Wills Chet Lemon
    Charlie Keller Tommy McCarthy
    Darrell Porter George Uhle
    Jim Fregosi Ken Williams
    50 0-1/18
    Jeff Bagwell Rollie Fingers
    Hal Newhouser Cal McVey
    Rogers Hornsby Al Orth
    Thurman Munson Kenny Rogers
    Roy Oswalt Jake Beckley
    Bruce Sutter John Olerud
    Willie Wilson Al Oliver
    Julio Franco Javier Valsquez
    51 0-1/19
    Jimmy Collins Nellie Fox
    Carl Yastrzemski Steve Garvey
    Mickey Cochrane Jack Glasscock
    David Wells Johan Santana
    Larry Walker Bill Donovan
    Ellis Burks Jesse Haines
    Eddie Plank Fernando Valenzuela
    Tim Keefe Jim Whitney
    52 0-1/20
    Ned Williamson Mike Cameron
    Frank Chance Dave Concepcion
    Fred Clarke John Hiller
    Jim Thome Eddie Rommel
    John Smoltz Dennis Martinez
    Bobby Mathews Claude Passeau
    Stan Coveleski Roger Peckinpaugh
    Fred McGriff Phil Rizzuto
    53 0-1/21
    Paul Hines Jack Fournier
    Billy Hamilton Brad Radke
    Harry Brecheen Steve Rogers
    Roy Thomas Devon White
    Bill Mazeroski Al Dark
    Jim Rice Bob Elliott
    Mark Langston Orlando Hernandez
    Tony Phillips Jim McCormick
    54 0-1/22
    Minnie Minoso Murry Dickson
    Jesse Tannehill George Kelly
    Yogi Berra Ray Schalk
    Willie Davis Bob Shawkey
    Hippo Vaughn Mike Griffin
    Mel Stottlemyre Herb Pennock
    Billy Wagner George Van Haltren
    Jimmy Ryan Omar Vizquel
    55 0-1/23
    Robin Ventura Felipe Alou
    Dom DiMaggio Red Lucas
    Willie Mays Dan Quisenberry
    Johnny Damon Lee Smith
    Stan Musial Jack Clark
    Ryne Sandberg Earle Combs
    Vladimir Guerrero Fred Lindstrom
    Tom Glavine Red Schoendienst
    56 0-1/24
    Don Newcombe Sal Bando
    Bill Dahlen John Franco
    Mike Piazza Goose Gossage
    Joe Jackson Stan Hack
    Bobby Abreu Ted Breitenstein
    Todd Helton Darrell Evans
    Tommy Bridges Tony Perez
    Pud Galvin Andy Van Slyke
    57 0-1/25
    Mariano Rivera Chick Hafey
    Tom Seaver Bobo Newsom
    Vida Blue Darrell Porter
    Goose Goslin Maury Wills
    Tris Speaker Julio Franco
    Mike Tiernan Roy Oswalt
    Jack Powell Bruce Sutter
    Robin Roberts Willie Wilson
    58 0-1/26
    Fred Lynn Ellis Burks
    Gary Sheffield Jimmy Collins
    Bobby Grich Larry Walker
    Dennis Eckersley David Wells
    Orel Hershiser Frank Chance
    Frank Tanana Bobby Mathews
    Bill Freehan Fred McGriff
    Bill Terry Ned Williamson
    59 0-1/27
    Dave Bancroft Harry Brecheen
    Ernie Banks Mark Langston
    Ken Griffey, Jr. Bill Mazeroski
    Buck Ewing Roy Thomas
    Dale Murphy l54
    George Gore
    Warren Spahn
    Jim Perry
    60 0-1/28
    Al Kaline l55
    Cap Anson
    Joe Carter
    Jim Bottomley
    Joe Sewell l56
    Sam McDowell
    Scott Rolen
    Mickey Lolich
    61 0-1/29
    Johnny Mize l57
    Lloyd Waner
    Gabby Hartnett
    Joe Judge
    Urban Shocker l58
    Early Wynn
    Willie McCovey
    Keith Hernandez
    62 0-1/30
    Larry Doyle l59
    Jason Giambi
    Babe Herman
    Carlos Beltran
    Red Faber l60
    Tommy John
    Bernie Williams
    Fielder Jones
    Adrian Beltre
    63 0-1/31
    Tom Candiotti l61
    Lenny Dykstra
    Wilbur Cooper
    Mike Schmidt
    Joe Mauer l62
    Juan Gonzalez
    Brooks Robinson
    Pete Rose
    64 0-1/32
    Christy Mathewson l63
    Hank Greenberg
    Roy Halladay
    Lon Warneke
    Zack Wheat l64
    Milt Pappas
    Mike Mussina
    Ron Cey
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's our 54th group of candidates:
      ..
      Minnie Minoso
      Jesse Tannehill
      Yogi Berra
      Willie Davis
      Hippo Vaughn
      Mel Stottlemyre
      Billy Wagner
      Jimmy Ryan
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        My ballot
        ...
        1. Berra
        2. Minoso
        3. H Vaughn
        4. W Davis
        5. J Tannehill
        6. J Ryan
        7. B. Wagner
        8. Stottlemyre
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #5
          1. Yogi Berra
          2. Minnie Minoso
          3. Willie Davis
          4. Hippo Vaughn
          5. Jimmy Ryan
          6. Jesse Tannehill
          7. Billy Wagner
          8. Mel Stottlemyre

          Comment


          • #6
            1. Yogi Berra
            2. Minnie Minoso
            3. Billy Wagner
            4. Jimmy Ryan
            ----- HOF -----
            5. Hippo Vaughn
            6. Jesse Tannehill
            7. Willie Davis
            8. Mel Stottlemyre

            Comment


            • #7
              1. Yogi Berra
              2. Minnie Minoso
              3. Willie Davis
              4. Billy Wagner
              5. Hippo Vaughn
              6. Mel Stollemyre
              7. Jesse Tannehill
              8. Jimmy Ryan

              Comment


              • #8
                1. Yogi Berra
                2. Minnie Minoso
                3. Willie Davis
                4. Hippo Vaughn
                5. Jimmy Ryan
                6. Jesse Tannehill
                7. Billy Wagner
                8. Mel Stottlemyre
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                Comment


                • #9
                  1. Yogi Berra
                  2. Billy Wagner
                  3. Minnie Minoso
                  4. Hippo Vaughn
                  5. Jimmy Ryan
                  6. Mel Stottlemyre
                  7. Jesse Tannehill
                  8. Willie Davis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Going to be an interesting round, Berra a no-brainer, Minoso a consensus pick, Wagner if you are big on relievers, Davis if you believe in his defense/credit for impressive road stats, looks like the greatest Hippo stands a chance...

                    1. Yogi Berra
                    2. Minnie Minoso
                    3. Willie Davis
                    4. Hippo Vaughn
                    5. Billy Wagner
                    6. Jimmy Ryan
                    7. Jesse Tannehill
                    8. Mel Stottlemyre
                    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 12-01-2019, 05:40 PM.
                    Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                    http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                      Going to be an interesting round, Berra a no-brainer, Minoso a consensus pick, Wagner if you are big on relievers, Davis if you believe in his defense/credit for impressive road stats, looks like the greatest Hippo stands a chance...
                      One doesn't have to be big on relievers. Not counting the three hybrid pitchers in the HOF, ranked all time:

                      1. Mariano Rivera
                      2. Goose Gossage
                      3. Billy Wagner

                      One pretty much has to hate relievers and ignored how the last 40 years of how pitchers have been used to exclude him. Smith, Fingers, Sutter, Hoffman have all been inducted. Time to move on from the ancient "failed starter" argument.

                      Similarly, Minoso is a borderline HOFer who still erroneously gets NeL credit where it is not deserved or warranted and thus gets over hyped on people's ranking lists.
                      Last edited by jjpm74; 12-01-2019, 12:03 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                        One doesn't have to be big on relievers. Not counting the three hybrid pitchers in the HOF, ranked all time:

                        1. Mariano Rivera
                        2. Goose Gossage
                        3. Billy Wagner

                        One pretty much has to hate relievers and ignored how the last 40 years of how pitchers have been used to exclude him. Smith, Fingers, Sutter, Hoffman have all been inducted. Time to move on from the ancient "failed starter" argument.

                        Similarly, Minoso is a borderline HOFer who still erroneously gets NeL credit where it is not deserved or warranted and thus gets over hyped on people's ranking lists.
                        Relief pitching is incredibly valuable, I question the merit of the individual reliever.
                        How do you go about ranking starters versus relievers, is something like WPA a good measuring stick for you, something else we should look at?

                        Minoso is no slam dunk, but in a weak grouping, he's a consensus top 4.
                        Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                        http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          1. Berra
                          2. B. Wagner
                          3. W. Davis
                          4. Minoso
                          5. J. Ryan
                          6. Vaughn
                          7. Stottlyemyre
                          8. Tannehill

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                            Relief pitching is incredibly valuable, I question the merit of the individual reliever.
                            How do you go about ranking starters versus relievers, is something like WPA a good measuring stick for you, something else we should look at?
                            That is a pretty absurd approach to take. Are you saying that every reliever has the exact same impact and is interchangeable?

                            You can say the exact same thing about starters. A typical starter goes 5-6 innings and pitches once every fifth day. Look at Jacob deGrom. He has won back to back CYAs. How many games did he pitch in where he left with a lead or was credited with a quality start where his team blew the game over the past two seasons? He was arguably the best pitcher in the NL for the past two years and his team barely won any of the games he pitched in.

                            How about individual hitters? Mike Trout won another MVP last year. How did his team do?
                            Last edited by jjpm74; 12-01-2019, 03:57 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post

                              That is a pretty absurd approach to take. Are you saying that every reliever has the exact same impact and is interchangeable?

                              You can say the exact same thing about starters. A typical starter goes 5-6 innings and pitches once every fifth day. Look at Jacob deGrom. He has won back to back CYAs. How many games did he pitch in where he left with a lead or was credited with a quality start where his team blew the game over the past two seasons? He was arguably the best pitcher in the NL for the past two years and his team barely won any of the games he pitched in.

                              How about individual hitters? Mike Trout won another MVP last year. How did his team do?
                              Nope, relievers individually don't throw many innings, it takes a lot of performance above replacement/average to make it individually. A dominant bullpen is extremely valuable. If we go by a Win Probability Approach, it matches well with your assessments, it's a consideration, i struggle with how much leverage credit to give, etc. This comes from a guy that was a huge fan of Billy Wagner, and my ranking is in the median range here, bumping Billy above Jimmy.

                              I'm not sure where you are going with the remaining comments, maybe I struck a nerve, apologies if I came across asinine in the postings.
                              Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                              http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                              Comment

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