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  • A New Hall Should Be Considered

    This thread does not apply to people like Gil Hodges and Tim Raines, players that should eventually be voted into the Hall of Fame.

    I propose that a separate Hall be established for players that played as regulars for 10 or more full seasons and pitchers that were regular starters or relivers for 7 or more seasons and left a career of positive accomplishments but not enough to be considered for the Hall of Fame.

    I have not done thorough research, but here is a list of players from the 1960's and 1970's (my golden era) that I would use as examples.

    Hitters
    Vada Pinson
    Jose Cardenal
    Don Kessinger
    Tony Oliva
    Rico Carty

    Pitchers
    Mike Cuellar
    Dean Chance
    Jim Perry
    Lindy McDaniel
    Camilo Pascual


    How many people can we add to this list?


  • #2
    So this is effectively a Hall of... Pretty Good?

    In which case, not Tim Raines, unless you mean his son, whose career doesn't exactly qualify with those criteria. The elder Raines was elected to the real HOF in 2017.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by wes_kahn View Post
      This thread does not apply to people like Gil Hodges and Tim Raines, players that should eventually be voted into the Hall of Fame.

      I propose that a separate Hall be established for players that played as regulars for 10 or more full seasons and pitchers that were regular starters or relivers for 7 or more seasons and left a career of positive accomplishments but not enough to be considered for the Hall of Fame.

      I have not done thorough research, but here is a list of players from the 1960's and 1970's (my golden era) that I would use as examples.

      Hitters
      Vada Pinson
      Jose Cardenal
      Don Kessinger
      Tony Oliva
      Rico Carty

      Pitchers
      Mike Cuellar
      Dean Chance
      Jim Perry
      Lindy McDaniel
      Camilo Pascual


      How many people can we add to this list?
      Are you talking about more of a circle of honor, like what many NFL teams do with their career players?

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't have any brick-and-mortar to donate, but I'll bring you a packed lunch while you're building it.
        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

        Comment


        • #5
          You want to do something like that? ...

          https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...cussion-thread
          Nos Amours! ... 1969-2004

          Comment


          • #6
            Hard to tell exactly what you mean here. Your examples of players is a pretty big range; Don Kessinger was barely good enough to make a MLB team most of his career, while Oliva and Pinson have decent HOF cases (probably better than Hodges).

            Comment


            • #7
              I almost made a thread about this.

              Don Kessinger was just a hair before my time; I started following baseball as a kid pretty much precisely when Kessinger stopped being a full-time player.

              So I'm limited to stats and second hand evaluations. Going by stats, Kessinger looks like a below average player, to the point where it's hard to figure out how he kept a starting job.

              But he made six All-Star teams in seven seasons between 1968-1974, and won two Gold Gloves. That's the profile of a guy who's either a major star or pretty close to it.

              ​​​​​​​So, I'm asking the group...what was the deal with Don Kessinger? Dis he have that great a glove at shortstop? Did he have Jeter-esque intangibles? I just don't know; this has never made sense to me.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by wes_kahn View Post
                This thread does not apply to people like Gil Hodges and Tim Raines, players that should eventually be voted into the Hall of Fame.

                I propose that a separate Hall be established for players that played as regulars for 10 or more full seasons and pitchers that were regular starters or relivers for 7 or more seasons and left a career of positive accomplishments but not enough to be considered for the Hall of Fame.

                I have not done thorough research, but here is a list of players from the 1960's and 1970's (my golden era) that I would use as examples.

                Hitters
                Vada Pinson
                Jose Cardenal
                Don Kessinger
                Tony Oliva
                Rico Carty

                Pitchers
                Mike Cuellar
                Dean Chance
                Jim Perry
                Lindy McDaniel
                Camilo Pascual


                How many people can we add to this list?
                You could probably add a large amount of players, considering that none of them are HoF worthy and only Oliva had a career that was relatively close to HoF standards.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                  I almost made a thread about this.

                  Don Kessinger was just a hair before my time; I started following baseball as a kid pretty much precisely when Kessinger stopped being a full-time player.

                  So I'm limited to stats and second hand evaluations. Going by stats, Kessinger looks like a below average player, to the point where it's hard to figure out how he kept a starting job.

                  But he made six All-Star teams in seven seasons between 1968-1974, and won two Gold Gloves. That's the profile of a guy who's either a major star or pretty close to it.

                  So, I'm asking the group...what was the deal with Don Kessinger? Dis he have that great a glove at shortstop? Did he have Jeter-esque intangibles? I just don't know; this has never made sense to me.
                  Great question.

                  Let's think this through because this is really the core issue for so many people, one way or another.

                  In most cases, with most players, the data and the narrative align quite well. In cases where they do not, one of two things is happening: either the data more closely captures the truth, and opinions were ill-founded, or perceptions were more accurate than the available data or metrics.

                  The number of All-Star selections and Gold Gloves are measures of perception - how a player fared in contemporary elections, where the electorate (whomever they were) were polled on their opinion. That doesn't mean opinions are worthless, nor that they are worthless where they conflict with the data necessarily. But it was, still, opinion.

                  Don Kessinger was selected to the NL All-Star roster from 1968-1972 and again in 1974.

                  Here is the starting NL shortstop and the reserves for each of those years:

                  1968 – Don Kessinger (Gene Alley, Leo Cardenas)
                  1969 – Don Kessinger (Denis Menke)
                  1970 – Don Kessinger (Bud Harrelson, Denis Menke)
                  1971 – Bud Harrelson (Don Kessinger)
                  1972 – Don Kessinger (Chris Speier)
                  1974 – Larry Bowa (Don Kessinger, Chris Speier)

                  Who selected the rosters?

                  In 1968 and 1969, players, managers and coaches selected the starting players.

                  From 1970 forward, fan voting made those selections.

                  Reserve players were selected by the All-Star Team’s manager, so Kessinger was selected by Sparky Anderson (1971) and Yogi Berra (1974) on those reserve rosters.

                  Here are Kessinger’s triple slash lines (BA/OBP/SLG) for the 1st half in each of those seasons:

                  1968 – .252/.298/.297 (89 OPS+)
                  1969 – .297/.361/.406 (120 OPS+)
                  1970 – .281/.344/.394 (106 OPS+)
                  1971 – .287/.358/.366 (111 OPS+)
                  1972 – .275/.359/.320 (106 OPS+)
                  1974 – .267/.348/.327 (94 OPS+)

                  This helps explain some of the All-Star selections, at least. Kessinger’s bat in the first half of those seasons wasn’t a zero by any means. He won Gold Gloves in two of those seasons (1969-1970) and was putting up good defensive numbers in the others.

                  You have a good defensive shortstop who was a league average-ish hitter in the first half when the voting was going on.

                  In fact, over the course of his entire career, Kessinger’s offense dropped off a little each month as the season wore on. His career monthly splits:

                  OPS+ by Month, Career
                  114 March/April
                  107 May
                  109 June
                  93 July
                  94 August
                  90 September/October

                  OPS+ by Season Half, Career
                  109 1st Half
                  90 2nd Half

                  Part of the mystery is solved.

                  The same story with the Gold Gloves. Kessinger was certainly a valuable defensive shortstop throughout his prime, including 3.5 dWAR (combined) during those 1969-70 seasons.

                  From 1968-74, Kessinger’s dWAR of 7.9 was the third-highest of any NL shortstop, behind Bud Harrelson (10.5) and Dal Maxvill (9.2). As both were also named to All-Star squads during those seasons, I should also mention Larry Bowa (6.1) and Chris Speier (5.7).

                  In offensive WAR, from ’68 to ’74, Kessinger lands 4th in the NL over that 7-year span, with a 9.4 mark behind Speier (10.8), Harrelson (10.2) and Maury Wills (9.7).

                  I’m not going to examine each season, individually any more in-depth, but suffice to say that when speaking of NL shortstops of the early 1970’s, there’s no question that Kessinger was among the best. Maybe one year Kessinger was better, another year Buddy Harrelson, etc. You get the point.

                  It appears the numbers lend some support to his reputation, if not outright justifying every award or distinction. No, he wasn’t a world beater, but then the best player at every position frequently isn’t each year and shortstop is a natural wink link in the lineup, particularly before the more recent trend of great hitting out of the 6 spot.

                  I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Kessinger was a great player – he clearly wasn’t – but he was among the best at what he did, at least in the prime of his career, and that’s exceedingly praiseworthy.
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you CW!

                    I guess it's also fair to say that DK benefitted from weak competition during that stretch.

                    Harrelson, Speier, & Menke, who like Kessinger were useful guys to have on one's team, aren't in the same class as Jeter, Nomar, & A-Rod, and that's a pretty big understatement.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I wonder if Kessinger's annual 2nd half swoons have anything to do with playing so many day games at Wrigley, far more than any of his competition, under the hot summer sun.

                      Did other players on the Cubs have similar dropoffs in the latter months of the season?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Great stuff Chadwick.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                          Did other players on the Cubs have similar dropoffs in the latter months of the season?
                          That would be an interesting question for someone (else) to research. *wink*
                          "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                          "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                          "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                          "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                            I wonder if Kessinger's annual 2nd half swoons have anything to do with playing so many day games at Wrigley, far more than any of his competition, under the hot summer sun.

                            Did other players on the Cubs have similar dropoffs in the latter months of the season?
                            I am no researcher, but I can definitely tell you about the incredible 1969 season where the Cubs had a huge lead over the Mets into August and then fell apart, while the Mets went from 59-51 to 100-62.

                            When the Cubs were up by 8 or 9 games in Mid-August, the entire team seemed to be enjoying career years. Leo Durocher didn't use his bench all that much, and he had a 4-man starting rotation that went deep into games, just like the Baltimore Orioles. But, Baltimore played at night, while the Cubs played in the daytime, and the summer of 1969 was a hot one in the Midwest and South.

                            Kessinger's batting average was up near .300 when the Cubs were running away with the division race. He dropped 25 points in average the last 6 weeks of the season. IIRC, he hit something like .220 in the final third of the season. He had been on pace for around 120 runs scored and ended up scoring about a 1/2 run per game during the swoon.

                            Glenn Beckert was up around .310 before Labor Day and hit around .200 in September.

                            Ernie Banks hit in the .220's for the final third of that season.

                            Randy Hundley was hitting in the .280's well after the All-Star Break and hit around .150 the last 50-60 games as Durocher had him catching every day.

                            Ron Santo was up near .320 when the Cubs were way up on the Mets, and he finished the year also hitting in the .220's

                            Fergie Jenkins and Bill Hands wore down and had ERAs several points higher.

                            So, yes, the entire team fell apart during the dog days, at the same time that the Mets went on a 41-11 run to the finish line.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Living in Chicago, even on the other side of the fence with the White Sox, this has been a strong theme for decades. The 1969 Cubs have been heavily criticized over the years for not giving regulars days off in the dog days and running the team ragged. It's a case where visual observations match the sabermetrics...the Cubs relied so heavily on their regulars they didn't realize the harm they were doing in the big picture by not resting them. I've literally heard dozens and dozens of Cubs fans, media, team members themselves all bemoan this.
                              Hey, look! Player X was really good for about five years in the '80s! WHY ISN'T HE IN THE HALL OF FAME???

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