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How does the sign stealing scandal affect 2017 Astros members chances?

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  • How does the sign stealing scandal affect 2017 Astros members chances?

    I think this affects some HOF chances.

    the biggest effect is of course on luhnow. Luhnow was the guy who built the greatest analytics and player development department of all time and people were raving how he revolutionized the game and brought it to another level. Luhnow wasn't a lock but with 1 or 2 more rings and a few more finals he would have been on path for the hall. Now he is likely out.


    hinch is peobably out too albeit he didn't have a super clear case to begin with.

    now coming to the players:

    the most obvious candidate is verlander and I don't think his chances are affected much because he had most of his career with another team plus he is a pitcher and wouldn't benefit from the trash can.

    more interesting are the hitter. Beltran didn't spend much time with the astros but supposedly was a centrepiece of this scandal. His chances could be affected.

    are the younger guys chances like correa, bregman and altuve affected? Neither of them has a HOFcareer yet but would they be affected if they manage a HOF career the rest of their career? I tend to think no but if they are fringe cases the incident might be held against them.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  • #2
    Beltran was not the centerpiece of the scandal. Cora was. Beltran was one of many who provided suggestions and was known throughout his entire career for being very adept at stealing signs (which, BTW is not against MLB rules in any way).

    I posted a lot about this already starting here in the Mets forum if you are interested:

    https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...09#post3559709

    I really don't think it will have a major impact on his, or any other player's HOF candidacy. He might or might not get in when eligible, but is borderline to begin with. No one in management involved has any shot at the HOF and Cora's career is probably over, even if he is not banned for life.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 01-14-2020, 05:15 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
      I really don't think it will have a major impact on his, or any other player's HOF candidacy.
      This is the most likely outcome.
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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      • #4
        The 1940 Tigers had a guy in the stands with a rifle scope, signaling hitters.

        The 1951 Giants are notorious for sign stealing.

        The Dodgers had Joe Ferguson, their "Eye in the Sky" Everyone knew what he was looking at,

        How is this new?
        This week's Giant

        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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        • #5
          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
          The 1940 Tigers had a guy in the stands with a rifle scope, signaling hitters.

          The 1951 Giants are notorious for sign stealing.

          The Dodgers had Joe Ferguson, their "Eye in the Sky" Everyone knew what he was looking at,

          How is this new?
          It's not new. It's just 2020, and with internet, 5000 cable channels, and social media everywhere, every little indiscretion made by someone is blown way out of proportion.

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          • #6
            Verlander is still a 1st ballot HOFer.
            As you mentioned, the youngsters are too early in their careers to call them HOFers yet. As for Beltran, I wasn't quite sure where I had him to begin with, but probably in. Now with the scandal, I'm not sure. It may depend on just how big a role he played.
            27 World Championships
            22 retired numbers
            Isn't it great to be a Yankee fan?
            Baseball was, is, and always will be to me the best sport-Babe Ruth

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            • #7
              Yeah I also think it has no effect on the players except maybe beltran as he was very borderline anyway and just a few percent could make the difference.

              luhnow and hinch are definitely out, cora too albeit the latter two weren't really hall of famers yet. I believe luhnow probably would have made the hall without this depending on the success he had the rest of his career
              I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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              • #8
                Luhnow and Hinch (before this scandal broke) were still too far out to have been on the HOF radar. I suppose one could say they were both on a "HOF path" if the Astros had won the WS this year, giving each a pair of championships on his resume. They didn't and now they've been banned.

                Truthfully, once their sentence is served, I expect both to eventually be re-hired and, depending on their future success/longevity in the game, either would have a decent shot at Cooperstown some day, particularly if they win another World Series. There's something about success with multiple teams that looks favorable for managers and executives, which doesn't translate for players (who are demerited by some for have bat, will travel).

                Ultimately, if their careers are successful enough, this incident won't keep them out of the HOF. That said, both are going to have to rehabilitate their image and sell themselves, in the short term, in order to secure another job. If they can accomplish that, then they can continue adding to their resumes. If this is their last gig in baseball - as I suspect it will be for Alex Cora - then they're toast.
                "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                • #9
                  Honestly, when it comes to the players, is this really any more significant than deflate gate was for Tom Brady? Does anyone really think Brady will not be a first ballot HOFer when he finally calls it a career?

                  This, like many other scandals, will come to pass. Right now, it is a top news story because we are in the middle of winter and in the middle of the week with nothing else of note going on in the other major sports until this weekend.

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                  • #10
                    The only real thing new here, IMHO, is that a generation of fans aged 20-40 are encountering for the first time on a scale of national attention the time honored practice of sign stealing. The practice was brought into the digital age, but ran headlong into the barrier that eventually the signal must be communicated to the hitter standing in the box. Is a trash can much more advanced than a rifle scope? Binoculars? Actually, the trash can is downright retro.

                    I'm glad they were caught, yes, but I can't believe that the Astros or the Red Sox did anything so wrong as to deserve major consequences. Deposing the respective managers is mostly about ensuring that the game's image isn't tarnished. Rob Manfred knows he can't afford to become a similar case as Selig became over PEDs. He believed that he needed to act to preserve his image. It is sad that he is probably correct on that.

                    The cat and mouse games will continue. This isn't "narrative" of the game's current state, but the very lore of the game continuing.
                    Catfish Hunter, RIP. Mark Fidrych, RIP. Skip Caray, RIP. Tony Gwynn, #19, RIP

                    A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -- Winston Churchill. (Please take note that I've recently become aware of how this quote applies to a certain US president. This is a coincidence, and the quote was first added to this signature too far back to remember when).

                    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test first and the lesson later. -- Dan Quisenberry.

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                    • #11
                      Just for the heck of it, I looked through the starting position players home/road BAs. Most had higher BAs on the road than they did at home and the whole vacate the title echoes out there *cough CC Sabathia cough* seem to overlook the fact that the Yankees only scored 3 runs against the Astros on the road during the 2017 ALCS. The Astros victory had nothing to do with trash can banging and everything to do with the dominance of the Astros pitchers there. Now for the Dodgers in the World Series: the Astros won 2 out of 3 games on the road and 2 out of 4 at home. How much impact did this scheme even have on the outcome of the games?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                        Just for the heck of it, I looked through the starting position players home/road BAs. Most had higher BAs on the road than they did at home and the whole vacate the title echoes out there *cough CC Sabathia cough* seem to overlook the fact that the Yankees only scored 3 runs against the Astros on the road during the 2017 ALCS. The Astros victory had nothing to do with trash can banging and everything to do with the dominance of the Astros pitchers there. Now for the Dodgers in the World Series: the Astros won 2 out of 3 games on the road and 2 out of 4 at home. How much impact did this scheme even have on the outcome of the games?
                        Insane splits, for one:

                        1579217559226.png

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pedrosrotatorcuff View Post

                          Insane splits, for one:

                          1579217559226.png
                          And the other 10-12 or so players?
                          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

                            And the other 10-12 or so players?
                            And that also overlooks the fact that most of the Astros actually hit better on the road than at home during the season, or the fact that the opposing teams (especially the Yankees) scored almost no runs against them when the Astros were at home.

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                            • #15
                              I've read that Altuve and Bregman had wires under their jerseys. Verlander is going to make the HoF regardless so the club isn't going to go down with the 2015 Royals as winning the series without an HoF member. I don't think it will keep Altuve out - who is well on his way to the hall. He's been considered and received praise as the leader of the club since his first full season. He's won MVP and finished 3rd once, 2x Sporting News PoY, 6x all-star, 5x SS, one GG, 3x batting champ, ALCS MVP and is hitting .290/.345/.527 in the postseason with a reputation as a good guy who plays the game hard. Usually a sentence like that ends with 'plays the game the right way.' Many might not necessarily think that now although I think it's a bit harsh. He should watch some film on how to slide headfirst. He probably wouldn't have gotten thrown out at third in the series last year. Who steals third and slides feet first? Anyhow he's well on his way to 1000+ runs, pushing 500 doubles, 2000+ hits, 200 HR and 300 steals. As long as he can keep hitting .300 he should be able to clear all these.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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