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  • #31
    The DH is disgusting.
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post


      I am no PED fanatic, but the fact he was USELESS until he suddenly was a great hitter out of nowhere at age 27 is troubling. Why in his particular case? This isn't a case of a great player who got WAY better after using PEDs. Ortiz would likley not be in baseball without PEDs. DHs who can't hit aren't MLB players for very long. He only had one 6+ WAR season.
      I've wondered about this too (I think most of us have). What somewhat complicates his timeline is that The Metrodome seems to have really suppressed his batting numbers, in particular his power.
      In his last two seasons with the Twins 2001-2002), Ortiz hit 11 HRs at home batting .250/.332/.432/.764. But on the road he hit 27 HRs batting .261/.333/.541/.875.
      In 2002, Ortiz hit 15 HRs on the road, but just 5 at home.

      Don't get me wrong. No, I don't think The Metrodome was keeping a "150 OPS+ batter" down at the time; I don't think he was going to be anywhere near that level from 1997-2002. But I do think that Ortiz was developing into a probable 30-HR type slugger years before he ever got to Boston.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
        I've wondered about this too (I think most of us have). What somewhat complicates his timeline is that The Metrodome seems to have really suppressed his batting numbers, in particular his power.
        In his last two seasons with the Twins 2001-2002), Ortiz hit 11 HRs at home batting .250/.332/.432/.764. But on the road he hit 27 HRs batting .261/.333/.541/.875.
        In 2002, Ortiz hit 15 HRs on the road, but just 5 at home.

        Don't get me wrong. No, I don't think The Metrodome was keeping a "150 OPS+ batter" down at the time; I don't think he was going to be anywhere near that level from 1997-2002. But I do think that Ortiz was developing into a probable 30-HR type slugger years before he ever got to Boston.
        Right, but the stats which adjust for park like wrc+ and ops+ show Ortiz jumping from around 110 every year to 150-170 overnight.

        That being said, the PED ramifications are really way down the list for me. I just think he is a tad short of the HOF regardless.

        The fact many people prefer a 140 ops dh over great middle infielders with 120 ops shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how value is created for teams. I think we have many people here that think a 20 point offensive difference is insurmountable.
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

          Right, but the stats which adjust for park like wrc+ and ops+ show Ortiz jumping from around 110 every year to 150-170 overnight.

          That being said, the PED ramifications are really way down the list for me. I just think he is a tad short of the HOF regardless.
          Right. A point I was trying to make was at that some (not all) of what Ortiz would become we could probably have seen coming if we were really paying attention or digging deep. It might have seemed out of the blue at the time, but it wasn't completely out of the blue. PEDs fuzzy the lens, of course.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

            Right, but the stats which adjust for park like wrc+ and ops+ show Ortiz jumping from around 110 every year to 150-170 overnight.

            That being said, the PED ramifications are really way down the list for me. I just think he is a tad short of the HOF regardless.

            The fact many people prefer a 140 ops dh over great middle infielders with 120 ops shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how value is created for teams. I think we have many people here that think a 20 point offensive difference is insurmountable.
            The home run is king. Sometimes we reap what we sow.

            Or how games are won... this is the type of phrasing that leads to people believing things 'cancel out' in a players career. For instance we talked about Grove. willshad (surprisingly) and maybe 2-3 others implied that by being used in lots of high leverage situations with Boston it 'cancelled out' him being benched in high leverage situations with Philadelphia. It's a logical fallacy. That's not to say players can't redeem themselves. Whether it's by scoring a big run after making a defensive error or performing big against a team after failing big a few times.

            The games are played to be won and the season/playoffs are played to win a championship. Not to 'create value' that can be arbitrarily redefined at a future date.

            I know you didn't mean anything by saying that. I'm not trying to nitpick at you. Just throwing my two cents in for people to scroll past.
            Last edited by bluesky5; 03-26-2020, 11:32 AM.
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

            Comment

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