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Yes/ No/ Maybe Hall of Fame Project, 2020 election

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  • jalbright
    replied

    Our history of inductions, updated to include this election:

    Inducted players by year inducted

    Code:
    1894--Ross Barnes, Al Spalding, Joe Start, Deacon White, George Wright
    1895--Charlie Bennett, Old Hoss Radbourn
    1896--Paul Hines
    1897--Pud Galvin
    1898--Cap Anson, Roger Connor, Jack Glasscock, Tim Keefe, King Kelly
    1899--Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson, John Montgomery Ward
    1900--Buck Ewing, Bid McPhee
    1903--Cal McVey
    1905--Dan Brouthers, Jim O'Rourke
    1906--Billy Hamilton, Amos Rusie
    1907--Lip Pike
    1908--Ed Delahanty, Frank Grant, Sam Thompson
    1909--Jesse Burkett
    1910--Jake Beckley, Kid Nichols
    1911--Jimmy Collins, George Davis, John McGraw
    1912--Bill Dahlen, Joe Kelley, Joe McGinnity, Cy Young
    1913--Willie Keeler
    1915--Elmer Flick, Rube Waddell, Vic Willis
    1916--Fred Clarke
    1917--Mordecai Brown, Home Run Johnson, Nap LaJoie
    1918--Eddie Plank, Honus Wagner
    1919--Frank Chance, Bobby Wallace
    1920--Roger Bresnahan
    1921--Sam Crawford, Christy Mathewson, Joe Tinker
    1922--Hughie Jennings, Ed Walsh
    1924--Sherry Magee
    1927--Frank (Home Run) Baker
    1928--Walter Johnson
    1929--Ty Cobb, Rube Foster, Tris Speaker, Zack Wheat
    1930--Stan Coveleski, Heinie Groh
    1931--Pete Alexander, Max Carey, Eddie Collins, Louis Santop
    1933--Dave Bancroft, Pop Lloyd, Urban Shocker, Cristobal torriente, Smoky Joe Williams
    1934--Red Faber. Jose Mendez, George Sisler
    1935--Harry Heilmann
    1936--Babe Ruth, Dazzy Vance
    1938--Rogers Hornsby, Alejandro Oms, Joe Sewell
    1939--Frankie Frisch, Bullet Joe Rogan, Bill Terry
    1941--Goose Goslin
    1942--Oscar Charleston, Mickey Cochrane, Lefty Grove, Gabby Hartnett
    1943--Earl Averill, John Beckwith, Willie Foster, Dick Redding, Turkey Stearnes
    1944--Lou Gehrig, Charlie Gehringer, Carl Hubbell
    1945--Al Simmons, Mule Suttles
    1946--Martin Dihigo, Wes Ferrell, Bob Johnson, Paul Waner
    1947--Joe Cronin, Ted Lyons, Jud Wilson
    1948--Cool Papa Bell, Bill Dickey, Jimmie Foxx, Biz Mackey, Red Ruffing
    1949--Ray Brown
    1950--Billy Herman, Mel Ott, Willie Wells
    1951--Luke Appling, Josh Gibson, Buck Leonard, Hilton Smith
    1952--Dizzy Dean, Hank Greenberg, Joe Medwick
    1953--Arky Vaughan
    1954--Pete Hill, Johnny Mize
    1955--Leon Day, Joe DiMaggio, Joe Gordon, Dick Lundy, Quincy Trouppe
    1956--Bobby Doerr
    1957--Lou Boudreau
    1958--Willard Brown, Perucho Cepeda, Victor Starffin
    1959--Bob Feller, Pee Wee Reese
    1960--Monte Irvin, Ralph Kiner, Hal Newhouser, Jackie Robinson, Enos Slaughter
    1961--Bob Lemon, Ted Williams
    1962--Roy Campanella
    1964--Larry Doby, Stan Musial, Early Wynn
    1966--Yogi Berra, Satchel Paige, Warren Spahn
    1967--Richie Ashburn, Robin Roberts, Duke Snider
    1968--Nellie Fox. Billy Pierce
    1969--Whitey Ford
    1970--Akira Bessho
    1971--Sandy Koufax
    1972--Ernie Banks, Jim Bunning, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Mathews
    1973--Ken Boyer, Hoyt Wilhelm
    1974--Don Drysdale, Willie Mays
    1975--Roberto Clemente, Al Kaline
    1976--Bob Gibson, Kazuhisa Inao, Masaichi Kaneda
    1977--Hank Aaron, Harmon Killebrew, Masaaki Koyama, Frank Robinson
    1978--Juan Marichal, Brooks Robinson
    1979--Ron Santo, Billy Williams
    1980--Lou Brock
    1981--Willie McCovey, Minnie Minoso, Shigeo Nagashima, Katsuya Nomura, Sadaharu Oh, Tetsuya Yoneda
    1982--Dick Allen, Bill Freehan, Joe Torre
    1983--Willie Stargell, Luis Tiant Jr.
    1984--Isao Harimoto, Ferguson Jenkins, Thurman Munson, Gaylord Perry, Carl Yastrzemski
    1985--Joe Morgan
    1986--Rod Carew, Jim Palmer
    1987--Tom Seaver
    1988--Johnny Bench, Reggie Jackson, Phil Niekro
    1989--Steve Carlton, Tony Perez, Reggie Smith, Don Sutton
    1990--Mike Schmidt, Ted Simmons
    1991--Yutaka Enatsu, Bobby Grich, Graig Nettes
    1993--Bert Blyleven, Dwight Evans
    1994--George Brett, Carlton Fisk, Tommy John, Nolan Ryan
    1995--Gary Carter, Goose Gossage, Sam Rice
    1996--Keith Hernandez, Dave Winfield, Robin Yount
    1997--Andre Dawson, Ozzie Smith
    1998--Eddie Murray, Lou Whitaker
    1999--Dennis Eckersley, Paul Molitor, Alan Trammell
    2000--Wade Boggs, Kirby Puckett, Ryne Sandberg
    2002--Tony Gwynn, Hiromitsu Ochiai, Cal Ripken, Jr.
    2003--Tim Raines
    2004--Rickey Henderson
    2005--Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez
    2007--Larry Walker
    2008--Craig Biggio, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Fred McGriff
    2009--Roberto Alomar, Jeff Bagwell, Jeff Kent, Greg Maddux, Mike Mussina, Mike Piazza, Dave Steib
    2010--Randy Johnson
    2011--Jim Edmonds, Tom Glavine, Ken Griffey Jr, Frank Thomas
    2012--Pedro Martinez, Ivan Rodriguez
    2013--Jim Thome
    2014--Todd Helton, Mariano Rivera
    2015--Derek Jeter
    2016--Vladimir Guerrero
    2018--Roy Halladay
    2018 special election:  David Cone, Wally Schang, Curt Schilling, John Smoltz, Harry Stovey, Ben Taylor
    2019--Carlos Beltran, Andruw Jones, Alex Rodriguez
    2020--Adrian Beltre, Joe Jackson, Jim McCormick, David Ortiz, Johan Santana, Ichiro Suzuki, Chase Utley
    Inducted contributors by year inducted

    Code:
    1894--Doc Adams, Henry Chadwick, William Hulbert
    1896--Jim Creighton, William Wheaton
    1897--Harry Wright
    1903--Dickey Pearce, Ben Shibe
    1905--Al Reach
    1908--Joe Leggett, Louis Wadsworth
    1911--Frank Selee
    1915--Al Spalding
    1919--Doug Allison
    1920--Tim Murnane, Francis Richter
    1922--Ned Hanlon
    1924--Charlie Comiskey, C. I. Taylor
    1926--Hank O'Day
    1927--Connie Mack
    1929--John Heydler, Ban Johnson
    1931--Miller Huggins, Kenesaw Landis
    1932--Iso Abe, Ed Barrow, Jack Dunn
    1933--Clark Griffith, Sol White
    1937--Tom Connolly, Al Munro Elias
    1941--Bill Klem-
    1943--J L Wilkinson
    1946--Branch Rickey
    1948--Ed Bolden, Cum Posey
    1950--Billy Evans, Matsutaro Shoriki
    1951--Bill McKechnie
    1952--Joe McCarthy
    1953--J. G. Taylor Spink
    1955--Larry MacPhail, Alex Pompez, Casey Stengel
    1958--Billy Southworth
    1959--George Weiss
    1961--Bucky Harris
    1962--Lefty O'Doul
    1970--Leo Durocher, Vic harris, Walter O'Malley
    1971--Tubby Scales
    1973--Al Lopez
    1976--Walter Alston, Buck O'Neil
    1978--Shigeru Mizuhara
    1979--Osamu Mihara
    1981--Phil Rizzuto, Kazuto Tsuruoka
    1982--Marvin Miller
    1983--Bob Howsam
    1986--Harry Dalton, Tetsuharu Kawakami
    1987--Yuki Nishimoto
    1988--Bill Veeck
    1992--Vin Scully
    1994--Tommy Lasorda, Dick Willisms
    1995--Earl Weaver
    1996--Whitey Herzog
    1999--Sparky Anderson
    2002--Pat Gillick
    2003--Pete Palmer
    2005--John Scheurholz
    2006--Bobby Cox
    2009--Tony LaRussa
    2011--Jim Leyland
    2014--Bill James

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied

    Our list of inductees, updated to include this election:

    Alphabetical List of inducted players

    Code:
    Hank Aaron
    Pete Alexander
    Dick Allen
    Roberto Alomar
    Cap Anson
    Luke Appling
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Jeff Bagwell
    Frank (Home Run) Baker
    Dave Bancroft
    Ernie Banks
    Ross Barnes
    Jake Beckley
    John Beckwith
    Cool Papa Bell
    Carlos Beltran
    Adrian Beltre
    Johnny Bench
    Charlie Bennett
    Yogi Berra
    Akira Bessho
    Craig Biggio
    Bert Blyleven
    Wade Boggs
    Barry Bonds
    Lou Boudreau
    Ken Boyer
    Roger Bresnahan
    George Brett
    Lou Brock
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett
    Roy Campanella
    Rod Carew
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton
    Gary Carter
    Bob Caruthers
    Perucho Cepeda
    Frank Chance
    Oscar Charleston
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    1roger Clemens
    Roberto Clemente
    Ty Cobb
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins
    Jimmy Collins
    David Cone
    Roger Connor
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Joe Cronin
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Andre Dawson
    Leon Day
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty
    Bill Dickey
    Martin Dihigo
    Joe DiMaggio
    Larry Doby
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Dennis Eckersley
    Jim Edmonds
    Yutaka Enatsu
    Dwight Evans
    Buck Ewing
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller
    Wes Ferrell
    Carlton Fisk
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford
    Rube Foster
    Willie Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx
    Bill Freehan
    Frankie Frisch
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig
    Charlie Gehringer
    Bob Gibson
    Josh Gibson
    Jack Glasscock
    Tom Glavine
    Joe Gordon
    Goose Goslin
    Goose 1gossage
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg
    Bobby Grich
    Ken Griffey, Jr.
    Heinie Groh
    Lefty Grove
    Vladimir Guerrero
    Tony Gwynn
    Roy Halladay
    Billy Hamilton
    Isao Harimoto
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Todd Helton
    Rickey Henderson
    Billy Herman
    Keith Hernandez
    Pete Hill
    Paul Hines
    Rogers Hornsby
    Carl Hubbell
    Kazuhisa Inao
    Monte Irvin
    Joe Jackson
    Reggie Jackson
    Hughie Jennings
    Ferguson Jenkins
    Derek Jeter
    Tommy John
    Bob Johnson
    Home Run Johnson
    Randy Johnson
    Walter Johnson
    Andruw Jones
    Al Kaline
    Masaichi Kaneda
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    Joe Kelley
    King Kelly
    Jeff Kent
    Harmon Killebrew
    Ralph Kiner
    Sandy Koufax
    Masaaki Koyama
    Nap LaJoie
    Barry Larkin
    Bob Lemon
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Dick Lundy
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Greg Maddux
    Sherry Magee
    Mickey Mantle
    Juan Marichal
    Edgar Martinez
    Pedro Martinez
    Eddie Mathews
    Christy Mathewson
    Willie Mays
    Jim McCormick
    Willie McCovey
    Joe McGinnity
    John McGraw
    Fred McGriff
    Bid McPhee
    Cal McVey
    Joe Medwick
    Jose Mendez
    Minnie Minoso
    Johnny Mize
    Paul Molitor
    Joe Morgan
    Thurman Munson
    Eddie Murray
    Stan Musial
    Mike Mussina
    Shigeo Nagashima
    Graig Nettles
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols
    Phil Niekro
    Katsuya Nomura
    Hiromichi Ochiai
    Sadaharu Oh
    Alejandro Oms
    Jim O'Rourke
    David Ortiz
    Mel Ott
    Satchel Paige
    Jim Palmer
    Tont Perez
    Gaylord Perry
    Mike Piazza
    Billy Pierce
    Lip Pike
    Eddie Plank
    Kirby Puckett
    Old Hoss Radbourn
    Tim Raines
    Dick Redding
    Pee Wee Reese
    Sam Rice
    Cal Ripken, Jr.
    Mariano Rivera
    Robin Roberts
    Brooks Robinson
    Frank Robinson
    Jackie Robinson
    Alex Rodriguez
    Ivan Rodriguez
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth
    Noan Ryan
    Ryne Sandberg
    Johan Santana
    Ron Santo
    Louis Santop
    Wally Schang
    Curt Schilling
    Mike Schmidt
    Tom Seaver
    Joe Sewell
    Urban Shocker
    Al Simmons
    Ted Simmons
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Ozzie Smith
    Reggie Smith
    John Smoltz
    Duke Snider
    Warren Spahn
    Al Spalding
    Tris Speaker
    Victor Starffin
    Willie Stargell
    Joe Start
    Turkey Stearnes
    Dave Steib
    Harry Stovey
    Mule Suttles
    Don Sutton
    Ichiro Suzuki
    Ben Taylor
    Bill Terry
    Frank Thomas
    Jim Thome
    Sam Thompson
    Luis Tiant Jr
    Joe Tinker
    Joe Torre
    Cristobal Torriente
    Alan Trammell
    Quincy Trouppe
    Chase Utley
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner
    Larry Walker
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Paul Waner
    John Montgomery Ward
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Lou Whitaker
    Deacon White
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Billy Williams
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Ted Williams
    Vic Willis
    Jud Wilson
    Dave Winfield
    George Wright
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Tetsuya Yoneda
    Cy Young
    Robin Yount
    Alphabetical list of inducted contributors

    Code:
    Iso Abe
    Doc Adams
    Doug Allison
    Walter Alston
    Sparky Anderson
    Ed Barrow
    Ed Bolden
    Henry Chadwick
    Charlie Comiskey
    Bobby Cox
    Jim Creighton
    Tom Connolly
    Harry Dalton
    Jack Dunn
    Leo Durcher
    Al Munro Elias
    Billy Evans
    Pat Gillick
    Clark Griffith
    Ned Hanlon
    Bucky Harris
    Vic Harris
    Whitey Herzog
    John Heydler
    Bob Howsam
    Miller Huggins
    William Hulbert
    Bill James
    Ban Johnson
    Tetsuharu Kawakami
    Bill Klem
    Kenesaw Landis
    Tony LaRussa
    Tommy Lasords
    Joe Leggett
    Jim Leyland
    Al Lopez
    Connie Mack
    Larry MacPhail
    Joe McCarthy
    Bill McKechnie
    Osamu MIhara
    Marvin Miller
    Shigeru Mizuhara
    Tim Murnane
    Yuki Nishimoto
    Hank O'Day
    Lefty O'Doul
    Walter O'Malley
    Buck O'Neil
    Pete Palmer
    Dickey Pearce
    Alex Pompez
    Cum Posey
    Al Reach
    Francis Richter
    Branch Rickey
    Phil Rizzuto
    Tubby Scales
    John Scheurholz
    Vin Scully
    Frank Selee
    Ben Shibe
    Matsutaro Shoriki
    Billy Southworth
    Al Spalding
    J. G. Taylor Spink
    Casey Stengel
    C. I. Taylor
    Kazuto Tsuruoka
    Bill Veeck
    Louis Wadsworth
    Earl Wever
    George Weiss
    William Wheaton
    Sol White
    J L Wilkinson
    Dick Williams
    Harry Wright
    Last edited by jalbright; 04-04-2020, 11:48 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    The holdovers
    ...
    Code:
     
    % yes % no Player
    ### #####
    65.4 34.6 Lance Berkman
    ...
    65.4 34.6 Pete Browning
    57.7 42.3 Bus Clarkson
    65.4 34.6 Dobie Moore
    61.5 38.5 Rick Reuschel
    53.8 46.2 Jimmy Wynn
    ...
    46.2 30.8 Bobby Abreu
    53.8 23.1 Tim Hudson

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    This election, we elected Adrian Beltre, Joe Jackson, Jim McCormick, David Ortiz, Johan Santana, Ichiro Suzuki and Chase Utley. Dropping off the ballot is Dunn. The rest of the candidates from this election will be on the 2021 ballot.

    The official results:
    ...
    Code:
     
    % yes % no Player
    ### #####
    65.4 34.6 Lance Berkman
    80.8 19.2 Johan Santana
    ### ##### ….
    65.4 34.6 Pete Browning
    57.7 42.3 Bus Clarkson
    80.8 19.2 Joe Jackson
    80.8 19.2 Jim McCormick
    65.4 34.6 Dobie Moore
    61.5 38.5 Rick Reuschel
    53.8 46.2 Jimmy Wynn
    ### ##### ……
    46.2 30.8 Bobby Abreu
    53.8 23.1 Tim Hudson
    76.9 15.4 David Ortiz
    ### ##### …...
    100.0 0.0 Adrian Beltre
    0.0 100.0 Adam Dunn
    92.3 7.7 Ichiro Suzuki
    84.6 7.7 Chase Utley
    Last edited by jalbright; 04-04-2020, 11:48 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Right, but the stats which adjust for park like wrc+ and ops+ show Ortiz jumping from around 110 every year to 150-170 overnight.

    That being said, the PED ramifications are really way down the list for me. I just think he is a tad short of the HOF regardless.

    The fact many people prefer a 140 ops dh over great middle infielders with 120 ops shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how value is created for teams. I think we have many people here that think a 20 point offensive difference is insurmountable.
    The home run is king. Sometimes we reap what we sow.

    Or how games are won... this is the type of phrasing that leads to people believing things 'cancel out' in a players career. For instance we talked about Grove. willshad (surprisingly) and maybe 2-3 others implied that by being used in lots of high leverage situations with Boston it 'cancelled out' him being benched in high leverage situations with Philadelphia. It's a logical fallacy. That's not to say players can't redeem themselves. Whether it's by scoring a big run after making a defensive error or performing big against a team after failing big a few times.

    The games are played to be won and the season/playoffs are played to win a championship. Not to 'create value' that can be arbitrarily redefined at a future date.

    I know you didn't mean anything by saying that. I'm not trying to nitpick at you. Just throwing my two cents in for people to scroll past.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 03-26-2020, 11:32 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Right, but the stats which adjust for park like wrc+ and ops+ show Ortiz jumping from around 110 every year to 150-170 overnight.

    That being said, the PED ramifications are really way down the list for me. I just think he is a tad short of the HOF regardless.
    Right. A point I was trying to make was at that some (not all) of what Ortiz would become we could probably have seen coming if we were really paying attention or digging deep. It might have seemed out of the blue at the time, but it wasn't completely out of the blue. PEDs fuzzy the lens, of course.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    I've wondered about this too (I think most of us have). What somewhat complicates his timeline is that The Metrodome seems to have really suppressed his batting numbers, in particular his power.
    In his last two seasons with the Twins 2001-2002), Ortiz hit 11 HRs at home batting .250/.332/.432/.764. But on the road he hit 27 HRs batting .261/.333/.541/.875.
    In 2002, Ortiz hit 15 HRs on the road, but just 5 at home.

    Don't get me wrong. No, I don't think The Metrodome was keeping a "150 OPS+ batter" down at the time; I don't think he was going to be anywhere near that level from 1997-2002. But I do think that Ortiz was developing into a probable 30-HR type slugger years before he ever got to Boston.
    Right, but the stats which adjust for park like wrc+ and ops+ show Ortiz jumping from around 110 every year to 150-170 overnight.

    That being said, the PED ramifications are really way down the list for me. I just think he is a tad short of the HOF regardless.

    The fact many people prefer a 140 ops dh over great middle infielders with 120 ops shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how value is created for teams. I think we have many people here that think a 20 point offensive difference is insurmountable.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post


    I am no PED fanatic, but the fact he was USELESS until he suddenly was a great hitter out of nowhere at age 27 is troubling. Why in his particular case? This isn't a case of a great player who got WAY better after using PEDs. Ortiz would likley not be in baseball without PEDs. DHs who can't hit aren't MLB players for very long. He only had one 6+ WAR season.
    I've wondered about this too (I think most of us have). What somewhat complicates his timeline is that The Metrodome seems to have really suppressed his batting numbers, in particular his power.
    In his last two seasons with the Twins 2001-2002), Ortiz hit 11 HRs at home batting .250/.332/.432/.764. But on the road he hit 27 HRs batting .261/.333/.541/.875.
    In 2002, Ortiz hit 15 HRs on the road, but just 5 at home.

    Don't get me wrong. No, I don't think The Metrodome was keeping a "150 OPS+ batter" down at the time; I don't think he was going to be anywhere near that level from 1997-2002. But I do think that Ortiz was developing into a probable 30-HR type slugger years before he ever got to Boston.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    The DH is disgusting.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheSlaff
    replied
    Lance Berkman - MAYBE
    Johan Santana - MAYBE

    Pete Browning - YES
    Bus Clarkson - YES
    Joe Jackson - NO
    Jim McCormick - YES
    Dobie Moore - NO
    Rick Reuschel - MAYBE
    Jimmy Wynn - NO

    Bobby Abreu - MAYBE
    Tim Hudson - MAYBE
    David Ortiz - YES

    Adrian Beltre - YES
    Adam Dunn - NO
    Ichiro Suzuki - YES
    Chase Utley - NO

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Ortiz was a horrific fielder/DH who managed "only" 55 WAR, 20 WAA, and a PARC-D under 88. He did one thing well, and even that "only" managed a 140 wRC+. Adrian Gonzales, for example, was at 130 and was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Ortiz on the bases and in the field. Al Rosen had 138 for his career. 140 really isn't mind-blowing considering it was the only value he provided the team at all.

    I am no PED fanatic, but the fact he was USELESS until he suddenly was a great hitter out of nowhere at age 27 is troubling. Why in his particular case? This isn't a case of a great player who got WAY better after using PEDs. Ortiz would likley not be in baseball without PEDs. DHs who can't hit aren't MLB players for very long. He only had one 6+ WAR season.

    Bottom line - the hype always surpassed reality with Ortiz. The only reason he approaches "maybe" for me is the 3.16 postseason WPA.

    I wouldn't argue with somebody who had him in. He is not an unreasonable choice.

    FWIW - there are 2-3 voters here who have him as a "NO." I would guess their reasoning is similar to mine.
    When taking out the whole Red Sox nation narrative and post season WPA, he is HOVG material. I can see why he would not be a consensus pick here.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    Ortiz was a horrific fielder/DH who managed "only" 55 WAR, 20 WAA, and a PARC-D under 88. He did one thing well, and even that "only" managed a 140 wRC+. Adrian Gonzales, for example, was at 130 and was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Ortiz on the bases and in the field. Al Rosen had 138 for his career. 140 really isn't mind-blowing considering it was the only value he provided the team at all.

    I am no PED fanatic, but the fact he was USELESS until he suddenly was a great hitter out of nowhere at age 27 is troubling. Why in his particular case? This isn't a case of a great player who got WAY better after using PEDs. Ortiz would likley not be in baseball without PEDs. DHs who can't hit aren't MLB players for very long. He only had one 6+ WAR season.

    Bottom line - the hype always surpassed reality with Ortiz. The only reason he approaches "maybe" for me is the 3.16 postseason WPA.

    I wouldn't argue with somebody who had him in. He is not an unreasonable choice.

    FWIW - there are 2-3 voters here who have him as a "NO." I would guess their reasoning is similar to mine.
    Thanks. That makes sense. I would be part of the judgmental NO crew.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    Bothrops, you are usually a non-judgmental voter, why the maybe on Ortiz? (honest question not snark)
    Ortiz was a horrific fielder/DH who managed "only" 55 WAR, 20 WAA, and a PARC-D under 88. He did one thing well, and even that "only" managed a 140 wRC+. Adrian Gonzales, for example, was at 130 and was SIGNIFICANTLY better than Ortiz on the bases and in the field. Al Rosen had 138 for his career. 140 really isn't mind-blowing considering it was the only value he provided the team at all.

    I am no PED fanatic, but the fact he was USELESS until he suddenly was a great hitter out of nowhere at age 27 is troubling. Why in his particular case? This isn't a case of a great player who got WAY better after using PEDs. Ortiz would likley not be in baseball without PEDs. DHs who can't hit aren't MLB players for very long. He only had one 6+ WAR season.

    Bottom line - the hype always surpassed reality with Ortiz. The only reason he approaches "maybe" for me is the 3.16 postseason WPA.

    I wouldn't argue with somebody who had him in. He is not an unreasonable choice.

    FWIW - there are 2-3 voters here who have him as a "NO." I would guess their reasoning is similar to mine.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Bothrops, you are usually a non-judgmental voter, why the maybe on Ortiz? (honest question not snark)

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied

    Lance Berkman - YES
    Johan Santana - YES

    Pete Browning - NO
    Bus Clarkson - MAYBE
    Joe Jackson - YES
    Jim McCormick - YES
    Dobie Moore - MAYBE
    Rick Reuschel - YES
    Jimmy Wynn - YES

    Bobby Abreu - YES
    Tim Hudson - MAYBE
    David Ortiz - MAYBE

    Adrian Beltre - YES
    Adam Dunn - NO
    Ichiro Suzuki - YES
    Chase Utley - YES

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