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Playoff Hall of Fame Project 7th group in winner and loser's brackets in 2d round

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  • Playoff Hall of Fame Project 7th group in winner and loser's brackets in 2d round


    Playoff HOF rules

    1. This project will start with 512 major leaguers selected by me. I started with the top 500 in BBref WAR, sorted out the guys who hadn’t retired, and added in major leaguers who made the actual Hall or who made it in some of our shadow hall projects. I added a few other suggestions and changes, and went with those 512

    2. Those 512 were organized randomly into 64 groups of eight. I’d prefer voters to rank them 1 through 8, with each player getting 8 points minus his ranking. I will accept votes that only name the four they think are the best HOF candidates out of the group. In that instance, the four named will be counted as being in fourth place, the other four as being in fifth place. This last provision is meant to help increase participation. I envision each election taking only one week, though in cases of holidays or other issues, I reserve the right to extend that time.

    3. I will go through the entire first round before proceeding to the second, the entire second before proceeding to the third and so forth. In the first round, four from each group will go on into the 1-0 bracket, and four will go on to the 0-1 bracket. That will yield 256 in each half.

    4. For the second round, we will start with the winners bracket. Half, or 128 will go to the group of 2-0 players. The other half will drop into the group of 1-1 players. Then we’ll get to the losers bracket. The winners will also go into the 1-1 bracket, yielding 256 players in that group. The guys in the first group who are 1-0 and then lose in the second round will fill in in four spots in the 32nd group of 1-1 players, then the second group of 1-0 guys to lose to go into the 1-1 pool will go into the 31st group and so forth to avoid as much as possible facing the same guys multiple times. The winners of the first 0-1 group will fill in the remaining four spots in the first 1-1 group, the winners of the second 0-1 group will fill in the remaining four spots of the second 1-1 group and so forth. The losers of the 0-1 group will fall to the 0-2 group.

    5. For the third round, the winners of the 2-0 group are inducted, and the losers of the 0-2 group are eliminated. That’s 64 in each of the inducted and eliminated groups. The losers of the 2-0 group go to the 2-1 group, which will provide 64 of the 192 players in the 2-1 group. The other 128 will come from the winners of the 1-1 group. I will assign the losers from the 2-0 group starting in the 12th group of 2-1 players and then filling in every third slot until they’re filled, again to try and minimize facing too many of the same players faced in earlier rounds. I will do the same thing for the winners of the 0-2 among the 1-2 players

    6. For the fourth round, the winners of the 2-1 group (96 of them) will be inducted, driving the total up to 160 inductees. Similarly, the losers of the 1-2 group are eliminated, meaning 160 of the original 512 are now out. The remaining 192 will be in the 2-2 group. For the 2-2 group, the first 2-1 losers will be in the first 2-2 group, the second 2-1 losers in the second 2-2 group, and so on. For the 1-2 winners, the first group goes to the 24th 2-2 group, the second to the 23rd, and so on.

    7. The 96 losers of the fifth round will be saved as reserves in case we need to replenish the pool of players when we go annual. The 96 winners of the 2-2 round will compete in the sixth round. The 48 winners of that round are inducted to bring us to 208 inductees. The 48 losers of the 3-2 round will compete in the seventh round. The 24 winners of the seventh round are inducted, which will get us 232 MLB inductees.. The 24 losers will be the first players to populate the pool to use against retired players.

    8. I will keep a list of the 12 players who went in as third or fourth place candidates in the seventh round as a reference for my two VCs, one for Japanese players, the other for players in a wide definition of Negro Leagues including any league with large numbers of Negro Leaguers, such as Mexico in the 1940’s, Cuba into the integration years, the Puerto Rican Winter League, the 1937 Dominican League, and so forth

    9. The point of this reference is that the middle of those 12 names should be used as one point of reference for what the floor should be considered to be for the VC selections. I will keep a list of the sixth third place candidates from the sixth fourth placers to aid people in determining where that middle point is. I will mandate that a minimum of five Japanese players must be inducted, and twelve Negro Leaguers. However, I will allow the VC voters to determine how many of the players in each group presented to them are over the floor level represented by the middle of the last 12 inductees list. I will add up the average number of candidates the VC members believe are over that floor for all groups in the category (Negro Leagues or Japan), and if it is higher than my mandated floor, that is how many candidates from that category will be inducted. If not, the mandated floor will be use,

    10. The VCs will have a playoff ranking within the category much like was used for the major leaguers. I will have to adjust the numbers to fit the number of inductees we determine and the number of candidates I offer to the VC.

    11. I won’t worry about ties except where they straddle the line between winners and losers in a group. In that case, the tie goes to the candidate getting the most first place votes, then the most second place, and so on to the last place in the group. If that does not break the tie, there will be a runoff election. If that remains tied, random selection methods such as coin flips or high card will be used to break the tie

    12. A quorum for the major leaguers will be six votes. I suspect I would accept a quorum of four for the VC groups

    13. People may vote on only the major leaguers if they wish. People may choose to only participate in one or both VCs. They may participate in the MLB players and only one VC or they may be part of all three.

    14. The VCs will follow the selection of the first 232 MLB players. I will probably select some players who are not selected by the VCs to be put in the pool, and maybe some others to be placed among the reserves. Until the number of inductees are determined for the VC groups, this decision will have to be put on hold.

    15. One issue is player/managers. It will be up to the individual voter on players to determine how much credit for managing the voter wishes to give the person for managing at the same time he played, with the instruction that if he was a part time player the credit given should be smaller than if he was full time. If he wasn't playing or just getting a few ABs, the managing credit should be minimal that year in the player vote. However, this project is exclusively about players, so if a man managed after his playing days, that managing should not be considered. The essential standrad is how the player (emphasis on the word player, but a player/manager's contributions may be considered as noted above) helps his team win on the field.

    16. I will put the lists I intend to use for the VCs out in advance of the deliberations of those groups to permit discussion of possible additions or omissions on my part. My reason for not doing so now is I expect additional research to take place between now and the time we’re close to getting to the VCs, and I’d prefer to come up with the final list only once, and in this environment, it should come closer to the end of the MLB group than now to allow for the insights from that research to be included.

    17. It seems certain there will be retirements and/or deaths of players between now and the end of the VC deliberations. Once the VCs are done, we will put those players in the pool and select two for each season to have passed since the beginning of this project. Once that is done, we will go annual, electing two per year from the pool.

    18. If we get over 40 players in the pool, we will have a playoff to cut the number to 30. One way we will use to avoid playoffs is to cut players from the pool is to drop players from the pool to the reserves if they fail to make the final election for inductees three times. Once that happens, they will be ineligible to return to the pool for three years. If the pool drops below 12 names, we will have a playoff for the candidates in the reserves to bring the list back up to at least 24 names in the pool. If there is a playoff among the reserves, I will probably cut the number of reserves to no more than 48.

    19. I will maintain lists of the inductees, those in the pool, and those in the reserves, I will also have available a post of the current round and the round to come for the information of participants

    20. This project is open to everyone member of Fever in good standing who has not been barred from similar projects.

    21. You have to rank all the players in the group. One omission from the group would be plugged in at 8th if I cannot get the voter to correct it on his or her own. If there are two or more open spaces, the ballot cannot be counted. If a voter sees fit to put PED guys or gambling-tainted players at the bottom of the list, that's within his or her prerogative.

    22. I will promise to count changes to your ballot if you 1) make the change less than five minutes before I close the balloting (I won't do it before 7 am Saturday without notice of an intent to do otherwise)., and 2) either PM me or post in the thread to notify me of the change. If you do not do the second, I'll try to keep up with changes, but I will not guarantee it. The first condition has no exceptions.



    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  • #2
    Here are the second and third rounds of the brackets:
    ....
    Code:
     
    1-0/01 …... 2-0/01
    Lou Gehrig …... Lou Gehrig
    Billy Williams …... Lefty Grove
    Lefty Grove …... Derek Jeter
    Mickey Mantle …... Mickey Mantle
    George Davis …... Kevin Brown
    Derek Jeter …... Jim Bunning
    Kirby Puckett …... Gary Carter
    Hughie Jennings …... Bob Feller
    …...
    1-0/02 …... 2-0/02
    Kevin Brown …... Johnny Bench
    Jim Bunning …... Willie Stargell
    Bob Feller …... Arky Vaughan
    Joe Start …... Bobby Wallace
    Bobby Bonds …... Pete Alexander
    Pete Browning …... Wade Boggs
    Gary Carter …... Chipper Jones
    Dolf Luque …... Eddie Mathews
    …...
    1-0/03 …... 2-0/03
    Bucky Walters …... Joe DiMaggio
    Pie Traynor …... Gaylord Perry
    Kevin Appier …... Babe Ruth
    Hardy Richardson …... Ted Williams
    Johnny Bench …... Roger Connor
    Arky Vaughan …... Carl Hubbell
    Willie Stargell …... Randy Johnson
    Bobby Wallace …... Duke Snider
    …...
    1-0/04 …... 2-0/04
    Pete Alexander …... w1-0/07
    Wade Boggs …...
    Hoyt Wilhelm …...
    George Wright …...
    Eddie Mathews …... w1-0/08
    Chipper Jones …...
    Rod Carew …...
    Barry Larkin …...
    …...
    1-0/05 …... 2-0/05
    Babe Ruth …... w1-0/09
    Ted Williams …...
    Andre Dawson …...
    Don Sutton …...
    Joe DiMaggio …... w1-0/10
    Gaylord Perry …...
    Luke Appling …...
    Dwight Gooden …...
    …...
    1-0/06 …... 2-0/06
    Roger Connor …... w1-0/11
    Harry Heilmann …...
    Vada Pinson …...
    Nomar Garciaparra …...
    Randy Johnson …... w1-0/12
    Duke Snider …...
    Carl Hubbell …...
    Enos Slaughter …...
    …...
    1-0/07 …... 2-0/07
    George Brett …... w1-0/13
    Joe Gordon …...
    Ted Lyons …...
    Tim Raines …...
    Hank Aaron …... w1-0/14
    Jackie Robinson …...
    David Ortiz …...
    Johm Montgomery Ward …...
    …...
    1-0/08 …... 2-0/08
    Barry Bonds …... w1-0/15
    Carlton Fisk …...
    Phil Niekro …...
    Reggie Smith …...
    Bob Johnson …... w1-0/16
    Walter Johnson …...
    Jeff Kent …...
    Vic Willis …...
    …...
    1-0/09 …... 2-0/09
    Lou Brock …... w1-0/17
    Monte Irvin …...
    Eddie Murray …...
    Al Spalding …...
    Nolan Ryan …... w1-0/18
    Chase Utley …...
    Lou Whitaker …...
    Cy Young …...
    …...
    1-0/10 …... 2-0/10
    Ken Boyer …... w1-0/19
    Cesar Cedeno …...
    Eddie Collins …...
    Rube Waddell …...
    Ty Cobb …... w1-0/20
    Sandy Koufax …...
    Rafael Palmiero …...
    Red Ruffing …...
    …...
    1-0/11 …... 2-0/11
    Dick Allen …... w1-0/21
    Lance Berkman …...
    Paul Molitor …...
    Jim O'Rourke …...
    King Kelly …... w1-0/22
    Chuck Klein …...
    Cal Ripken Jr …...
    Jimmy Wynn …...
    …...
    1-0/12 …... 2-0/12
    Sam Crawford …... w1-0/23
    Roger Clemens …...
    Dave Stieb …...
    Wally Schang …...
    Burleigh Grimes …... w1-0/24
    Greg Maddux …...
    Juan Marichal …...
    Sam Rice …...
    …...
    1-0/13 …... 2-0/13
    Joe Cronin …... w1-0/25
    Joe McGinnity …...
    Luis Tiant Jr …...
    Miguel Tejada …...
    Dizzy Dean …... w1-0/26
    Elmer Flick …...
    Ralph Kiner …...
    Alex Rodriguez …...
    …...
    1-0/14 …... 2-0/14
    Jesse Burkett …... w1-0/27
    Bob Lemon …...
    Jim Palmer …...
    Curt Schilling …...
    Ross Barnes …... w1-0/28
    Jimmie Foxx …...
    Rickey Henderson …...
    Reggie Jackson …...
    …...
    1-0/15 …... 2-0/15
    Babe Adams …... w1-0/29
    Albert Belle …...
    Heinie Groh …...
    Mark McGwire …...
    Craig Biggio …... w1-0/30
    Roberto Clemente …...
    Charlie Gehringer …...
    Joe Torre …...
    …...
    1-0/16 …... 2-0/16
    Roberto Alomar …... w1-0/31
    Frank Baker …...
    Joe Morgan …...
    Al Simmons …...
    David Cone …... w1-0/32
    Johnny Pesky …...
    Old Hoss Radbourn …...
    Robin Yount …...
    …...
    1-0/17 …... 1.1/01
    Lou Boudreau …... Charlie Bennett
    Don Drysdale …... Dolph Camili
    Tim Hudson …... Addie Joss
    Sherry Magee …... Ernie Lombardi
    Jim Edmonds …... l1-0/32
    Bob Gibson …...
    Fergie Jenkins …...
    Nap LaJoie …...
    …...
    1-0/18 …... 1.1/02
    Kenny Lofton …... Chuck Finley
    Carl Mays …... Harry Hooper
    Al Rosen …... Jim Kaat
    Dazzy Vance …... Roger Maris
    Dan Brouthers …... l1-0/31
    Manny Ramirez …...
    Frank Thomas …...
    Paul Waner …...
    …...
    1-0/19 …... 1.1/03
    John Clarkson …... Max Carey
    Harmon Killebrew …... Cupid Childs
    Pedro Martinez …... Nap Rucker
    Honus Wagner …... Sammy Sosa
    Wally Berger …... l1-0/30
    Whitey Ford …...
    Edd Roush …...
    Ed Walsh …...
    …...
    1-0/20 …... 1.1/04
    Edgar Martinez …... Babe Herman
    Don Mattingly …... Jorge Posada
    Frank Viola …... Sam Thompson
    Hack Wilson …... Roy White
    Roy Campanella …... l1-0/29
    Larry Doby …...
    Willie Keeler …...
    Rick Reuschel …...
    …...
    1-0/21 …... 1.1/05
    Mordecai Brown …... Rocky Colavito
    Frank Robinson …... George Foster
    Ivan Rodriguez …... Clark Griffith
    Jim Sundberg …... Bret Saberhagen
    Bill Dickey …... l1-0/28
    Frankie Frisch …...
    Ron Santo …...
    Deacon White …...
    …...
    1-0/22 …... 1.1/06
    Orlando Cepeda …... Buddy Bell
    Wes Ferrell …... Bert Campaneris
    Amos Otis …... John McGraw
    Carlos Zambrano …... Tony Oliva
    Andruw Jones …... l1-0/27
    Tony Mullane …...
    Amos Rusie …...
    Alan Trammell …...
    …...
    1-0/23 …... 1.1/07
    Earl Averill …... w0-1/07
    Jose Cruz …...
    Dwight Evans …...
    Mel Ott …...
    Richie Ashburn …... l1-0/26
    Ed Delahanty …...
    Bid McPhee …...
    Andy Pettite …...
    …...
    1-0/24 …... 1.1/08
    Tony Gwynn …... w0-1/08
    Pee Wee Reese …...
    Ted Simmons …...
    George Sisler …...
    Steve Carlton …... l1-0/25
    Joe Medwick …...
    Kid Nichols …...
    Ozzie Smith …...
    …...
    1-0/25 …... 1.1/09
    Bert Blyleven …... w0-1/09
    Jim Fregosi …...
    Charlie Keller …...
    Dave Winfield …...
    Jeff Bagwell …... l1-0/24
    Rogers Hornsby …...
    Thurman Munson …...
    Hal Newhouser …...
    …...
    1-0/26 …... 1.1/10
    Mickey Cochrane …... w0-1/10
    Tim Keefe …...
    Eddie Plank …...
    Carl Yastrzemski …...
    Fred Clarke …... l1-0/23
    Stan Coveleski …...
    John Smoltz …...
    Jim Thome …...
    …...
    1-0/27 …... 1.1/11
    Billy Hamilton …... w0-1/11
    Paul Hines …...
    Tony Phillips …...
    Jim Rice …...
    Yogi Berra …... l1-0/22
    Willie Davis …...
    Minnie Minoso …...
    Hippo Vaughn …...
    …...
    1-0/28 …... 1.1/12
    Tom Glavine …... w0-1/12
    Willie Mays …...
    Stan Musial …...
    Ryne Sandberg …...
    Bill Dahlen …... l1-0/21
    Todd Helton …...
    Joe Jackson …...
    Mike Piazza …...
    …...
    1-0/29 …... 1.1/13
    Mariano Rivera …... w0-1/13
    Robin Roberts …...
    Tom Seaver …...
    Tris Speaker …...
    Dennis Eckersley …... l1-0/20
    Bobby Grich …...
    Gary Sheffield …...
    Bill Terry …...
    …...
    1-0/30 …... 1.1/14
    Ernie Banks …... w0-1/14
    Buck Ewing …...
    Ken Griffey Jr …...
    Warren Spahn …...
    Cap Anson …... l1-0/19
    Al Kaline …...
    Scott Rolen …...
    Joe Sewell …...
    …... 1.1/15
    1-0/31 …... w0-1/15
    Gabby Hartnett …...
    Keith Hernandez …...
    Willie McCovey …...
    Johnny Mize …...
    Carlos Beltran …... l1-0/18
    Adrian Beltre …...
    Red Faber …...
    Bernie Williams …...
    …...
    1-0/32 …... 1.1/16
    Joe Mauer …... w0-1/16
    Brooks Robinson …...
    Pete Rose …...
    Mike Schmidt …...
    Hank Greenberg …... l1-0/17
    Roy Halladay …...
    Christy Mathewson …...
    Mike Mussina …...
    …...
    0-1/01 …... 1.1/17
    Addie Joss …... w0-1/17
    Ernie Lombardi …...
    Fred Tenney …...
    Charlie Bennett …...
    Charlie Buffinton …... l1-0/16
    Dolph Camilli …...
    Silver King …...
    Mark Belanger …...
    …...
    0-1/02 …... 1.1/18
    Jim Kaat …... w0-1/18
    Chuck Finley …...
    Doug DeCinces …...
    Charley Jones …...
    Harry Hooper …... l0*1/15
    Roger Maris …...
    Bill Nicholson …...
    Gene Tenace …...
    …...
    0-1/03 …... 1.1/19
    Jack Chesbro …... w0-1/19
    Jason Kendall …...
    Dutch (E) Leonard …...
    Nap Rucker …...
    Sammy Sosa …... l1-0/14
    Max Carey …...
    Cupid Childs …...
    Tony Fernandez …...
    …...
    0-1/04 …... 1.1/20
    Chief Bender …... w0-1/20
    Jack Morris …...
    Jorge Posada …...
    Sam Thompson …...
    Billy Herman …... l0-1/13
    Harold Baines …...
    Gil McDougald …...
    Roy White …...
    …...
    0-1/05 …... 1.1/21
    Bret Saberhagen …... w0-1/21
    Clark Griffith …...
    Lave Cross …...
    Cliff Lee …...
    Rocky Colavito …... l1-0/12
    Noodles Hahn …...
    George Foster …...
    Doc White …...
    …...
    0-1/06 …... 1.1/22
    Bert Campaneris …... w0-1/22
    Mark Buehrle …...
    Torii Hunter …...
    Larry Gardner …...
    Tony Oliva …... l0-1/11
    Buddy Bell …...
    John McGraw …...
    Dizzy Trout …...
    …...
    0-1/07 …... 1.1/23
    John Candelaria …... w0-1/23
    Tony Lazzeri …...
    Allie Reynolds …...
    Vern Stephens …...
    Curt Flood …... l0-1/10
    Brian Giles …...
    Darryl Strawberry …...
    Bob Welch …...
    …...
    0-1/08 …... 1.1/24
    Roger Bresnahan …... w0-1/24
    Norm Cash …...
    Travis Jackson …...
    Ezra Sutton …...
    Brett Butler …... l0-1/09
    Will Clark …...
    Eppa Rixey …...
    Mike Smith …...
    …...
    0-1/09 …... 1.1/25
    Rick Ferrell …... w0-1/25
    Ned Garver …...
    Luis Gonzalez …...
    Schoolgoy Rowe …...
    Tommy Bond …... l1-0/08
    Gary Gaetti …...
    Sad Sam Jones …...
    Ken Singleton …...
    …...
    0-1/10 …... 1.1/26
    Larry Jackson …... w0-1/26
    George Kell …...
    Davey Lopes …...
    Del Pratt …...
    Carlos Delgado …... l0-1/07
    Joe Kelley …...
    Buddy Myer …...
    Rusty Staub …...
    …...
    0-1/11 …... 1.1/27
    Luis Aparicio …... w0-1/27
    Jerry Koosman …...
    Harry Stovey …...
    Joe Tinker …...
    Hugh Duffy …... Nomar Garciaparra
    Ron Guidry …... Harry Heilmann
    Jimmy Rollins …... Vada Pinson
    Dixie Walker …... Enos Slaughter
    …...
    0-1/12 …... 1.1/28
    Ben Chapman …... w0-1/28
    Eddie Ciccotte …...
    Catfish Hunter …...
    Rabbit Maranville …...
    Mark Grace …... Luke Appling
    Jamie Moyer …... Andre Dawson
    Jimmy Sheckard …... Dwight Gooden
    Curt Simmons …... Don Sutton
    …...
    0-1/13 …... 1.1/29
    Gavvy Cravath …... w0-1/29
    Ed Konetchy …...
    George Mullin …...
    Cy Seymour …...
    Art Fletcher …... Rod Carew
    Chuck Knoblauch …... Barry Larkin
    Graig Nettles …... Hoyt Wilhelm
    Ross Youngs …... George Wright
    …...
    0-1/14 …... 1.1/30
    Jose Canseco …... w0-1/30
    Larry French …...
    Sam Leever …...
    Mickey Welch …...
    Bob Caruthers …... Kevin Appier
    Bobby Doerr …... Hardy Richardson
    Jack Quinn …... Pie Traynor
    Jack Stivetts …... Bucky Walters
    …...
    0-1/15 …... 1.1/31
    Kiki Cuyler …... w0-1/31
    Tommy Leach …...
    Claude Osteen …...
    Bobby Veach …...
    Mel Harder …... Bobby Bonds
    Trevor Hoffman …... Pete Browning
    Dave Parker …... Dolf Luque
    Lip Pike …... Joe Start
    …...
    0-1/16 …... 1.1/32
    Gil Hodges …... w0-1/32
    Rube Marquard …...
    Billy Pierce …...
    Willie Randolph …...
    Brian Downing …... George Davis
    Fred Dunlap …... Hughie Jennings
    Toby Harrah …... Kirby Puckett
    Heinie Manush …... Billy Williams
    …...
    0-1/17 …... 0-2/01
    Johnny Evers …... Mark Belanger
    Waite Hoyt …... Charlie Buffinton
    Matt Williams …... Silver King
    Wilbur Wood …... Fred Tenney
    Chet Lemon …... Doug DeCinces
    Tommy McCarthy …... Charley Jones
    George Uhle …... Bill Nicholson
    Ken Williams …... Gene Tenace
    …...
    0-1/18 …... 0-2/02
    Rollie Fingers …... Jack Chesbro
    Cal McVey …... Tony Fernandez
    Al Orth …... Jason Kendall
    Kenny Rogers …... Dutch (E) Leonard
    Jake Beckley …... Harold Baines
    John Olerud …... Chief Bender
    Al Oliver …... Gil Mcougald
    Javier Valsquez …... Jack Morris
    …...
    0-1/19 …... 0-2/03
    Nellie Fox …... Lave Cross
    Steve Garvey …... Noodles Hahn
    Jack Glasscock …... Cliff Lee
    Johan Santana …... Doc White
    Bill Donovan …... Mark Buehrle
    Jesse Haines …... Larry Gardner
    Fernando Valenzuela …... Torii Hunter
    Jim Whitney …... Dizzy Trout
    …...
    0-1/20 …... 0-2/04
    Mike Cameron …... l0-1/07
    Dave Concepcion …...
    John Hiller …...
    Eddie Rommel …...
    Dennis Martinez …... l0-1/08
    Claude Passeau …...
    Roger Peckinpaugh …...
    Phil Rizzuto …...
    …...
    0-1/21 …... 0-2/05
    Jack Fournier …... l0-1/09
    Brad Radke …...
    Steve Rogers …...
    Devon White …...
    Al Dark …... l0-1/10
    Bob Elliott …...
    Orlando Hernandez …...
    Jim McCormick …...
    …...
    0-1/22 …... 0-2/06
    Murry Dickson …... l0-1/11
    George Kelly …...
    Ray Schalk …...
    Bob Shawkey …...
    Mike Griffin …... l0-1/12
    Herb Pennock …...
    George Van Haltren …...
    Omar Vizquel …...
    …...
    0-1/23 …... 0-2/07
    Felipe Alou …... l0-1/13
    Red Lucas …...
    Dan Quisenberry …...
    Lee Smith …...
    Jack Clark …... l0-1/14
    Earle Combs …...
    Fred Lindstrom …...
    Red Schoendienst …...
    …...
    0-1/24 …... 0-2/08
    Sal Bando …... l0-1/15
    John Franco …...
    Goose Gossage …...
    Stan Hack …...
    Ted Breitenstein …... l0-1/16
    Darrell Evans …...
    Tony Perez …...
    Andy Van Slyke …...
    …...
    0-1/25 …... 0-2/09
    Chick Hafey …... l0-1/17
    Bobo Newsom …...
    Darrell Porter …...
    Maury Wills …...
    Julio Franco …... l0-1/18
    Roy Oswalt …...
    Bruce Sutter …...
    Willie Wilson …...
    …...
    0-1/26 …... 0-2/10
    Ellis Burks …... l0-1/19
    Jimmy Collins …...
    Larry Walker …...
    David Wells …...
    Frank Chance …... l0-1/20
    Bobby Mathews …...
    Fred McGriff …...
    Ned Williamson …...
    …...
    0-1/27 …... 0-2/11
    Harry Brecheen …... l0-1/21
    Mark Langston …...
    Bill Mazeroski …...
    Roy Thomas …...
    Jimmy Ryan …... l0-1/22
    Mel Stottlemyre …...
    Jesse Tannehill …...
    Billy Wagner …...
    …...
    0-1/28 …... 0-2/12
    Johnny Damon …... l0-1/23
    Dom DiMaggio …...
    Vladimir Guerrero …...
    Robin Ventura …...
    Bobby Abreu …... l0-1/24
    Tommy Bridges …...
    Pud Galvin …...
    Don Newcombe …...
    …...
    0-1/29 …... 0-2/13
    Vida Blue …... l0-1/25
    Goose Goslin …...
    Jack Powell …...
    Mike Tiernan …...
    Bill Frehan …... l0-1/26
    Orel Hershiser …...
    Freddy Lynn …...
    Frank Tanana …...
    …...
    0-1/30 …... 0-2/14
    Dave Bancroft …... l0-1/27
    George Gore …...
    Dale Murphy …...
    Jim Perry …...
    Jim Bottomley …... l0-1/28
    Joe Carter …...
    Mickey Lolich …...
    Sam McDowell …...
    …...
    0-1/31 …... 0-2/15
    Joe Judge …... l0-1/29
    Urban Shocker …...
    Lloyd Waner …...
    Early Wynn …...
    Larry Doyle …... l0-1/30
    Jason Giambi …...
    Babe Herman …...
    Tommy John …...
    …...
    0-1/32 …... 0-2/16
    Tom Candiotti …... l0-1/31
    Wilbur Cooper …...
    Lenny Dykstra …...
    Juan Gonzalez …...
    Ron Cey …... l0-1/32
    Milt Pappas …...
    Lon Warneke …...
    Zack Wheat …...
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

    Comment


    • #3

      First is the winner's bracket ballot:
      ....
      George Brett
      Joe Gordon
      Ted Lyons
      Tim Raines
      Hank Aaron
      Jackie Robinson
      David Ortiz
      John M Ward
      ...

      And now the loser's bracket ballot:
      .....
      John Candelaria
      Tony Lazzeri
      Allie Reynolds
      Vern Stephens
      Curt Flood
      Brian Giles
      Darryl Strawberry
      Bob Welch
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • #4
        My winner's bracket ballot
        ...
        1. Aaron
        2. J Robinson
        3. Brett
        4. Gordon
        5. Raines
        6. Lyons
        7. Ward
        8. Ortiz
        ...
        My loser's bracket ballot
        ...
        1. Lazzeri
        2. Stephens
        3. Giles
        4. Strawberry
        5. Flood
        6. Welch
        7. Candelaria
        8. Reynolds
        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

        Comment


        • #5
          Winner's Bracket:

          1. Hank Aaron
          2. Jackie Robinson
          3. George Brett
          4. Tim Raines
          5. Joe Gordon
          6. Ted Lyons
          7. John M Ward
          8. David Ortiz
          --------HOF Line--------

          Loser's Bracket:

          1. Tony Lazzeri
          --------HOF Line---------
          2. Darryl Strawberry
          3. Curt Flood
          4. Vern Stephens
          5. Allie Reynolds
          6. Bob Welch
          7. Brian Giles
          8. John Candelaria

          The loser's bracket was tough to rank. Especially Flood.

          Comment


          • #6
            Winner's Bracket:

            1. Hank Aaron
            2. George Brett
            3. Jackie Robinson
            4. Tim Raines
            5. Joe Gordon
            6. Ted Lyons
            7. David Ortiz
            8. John Montgomery Ward

            Loser's Bracket:

            1. Brian Giles
            2. Darryl Strawberry
            3. Tony Lazzeri
            4. John Candelaria
            5. Vern Stephens
            6. Curt Flood
            7. Bob Welch
            8. Allie Reynolds

            Comment


            • #7
              Winner's Bracket

              1. Hank Aaron
              2. George Brett
              3. Jackie Robinson
              4. Tim Raines
              5. Ted Lyons
              6. Joe Gordon
              7. John M. Ward
              8. David Ortiz

              Loser's Bracket

              1. Darryl Strawberry
              2. Vern Stephens
              3. Tony Lazzeri
              4. Brian Giles
              5. Allie Reynolds
              6. Curt Flood
              7. Bob Welch
              8. John Candelaria

              Comment


              • #8
                1. Hank Aaron
                2. George Brett
                3. Jackie Robinson
                4. John Ward
                5. David Ortiz
                6. Tim Raines
                7. Ted Lyons
                8. Joe Gordon
                ----- HOF -----


                1. Vern Stephens
                2. Tony Lazzeri
                ----- HOF -----
                3. Darryl Strawberry
                4. Brian Giles
                5. Allie Reynolds
                6. Bob Welch
                7. Curt Flood
                8. John Candelaria

                Comment


                • #9


                  1. Aaron
                  2. J Robinson
                  3. Brett
                  4. Gordon
                  5. Raines
                  6. Lyons
                  7. Ward
                  8. Ortiz


                  1. Lazzeri
                  2. Giles
                  3. Stephens
                  4. Flood
                  5. Strawberry
                  6. Candelaria
                  7. Welch
                  8. Reynolds

                  1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                  1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                  1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                  The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                  The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Winner's Bracket

                    1. Hank Aaron
                    2. George Brett
                    3. Jackie Robinson
                    4. John M. Ward
                    5. David Ortiz
                    6. Ted Lyons
                    7. Tim Raines
                    8. Joe Gordon

                    Loser's Bracket

                    1. Tony Lazzeri
                    2. Vern Stephens
                    3. Allie Reynolds
                    4. Darryl Strawberry
                    5. Brian Giles
                    6. Curt Flood
                    7. Bob Welch
                    8. John Candelaria
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For those putting Joe Gordon 8th,

                      Joe Gordon

                      My rating system says he’s in the clearly belongs group. He was average on the basepaths, but an excellent fielder. His defensive reputation was sterling, and, if we give him some reasonable credit for the years he lost in WWII to the service, he would have had the most fielding runs of any second baseman in history. Even with no adjustments due to his wartime service in PA, he would be 28th among all second sackers in history.

                      He does have a weakness in HOF terms: his average is 100th among 2B. That fact and his PA mean he’s 38th in hits and 40th in times on base. He’s 25th in runs scored at the position (Note: all career counting stats in this comment are adjusted for his time lost to military service). He was 17th among 2B in walks, and added excellent power for the position: 5th in isolated power, 9th in extra base hits, 4th in homers, and 9th in slugging percentage leading to 18th in total bases. He is also 12th in RBI. He was in the top 10 in his league 5 times each in runs, slugging percentage and RBI; 6 times in extra base hits; 7 times in position player WAR, and 9 times in homers. Wartime service and a .268 average are not sufficient reasons to keep a second basemen who was one of the greatest glovemen ever at the position with exceptional power for the position. When we compare his WAR and WAA to those who played either while he played or within five years of that time, Gordon is 10th in WAA and 13th in WAR. That's HOF territory, as we're talking about a 23 year period, so we'd expect 23 HOF position players. This group is more favorable to him, as many other top players had years lost to military service. He belongs.


                      I know he belongs behind Aaron, Jackie and Brett. But all of the other five? He lost time to WW II, but should that count against him?

                      Consider this, realizing Ward didn't have MVP awards in enough of his career to be fair, and never had all-star games, and while in the career numbers for Ward and Lyons, I included hitting and pitching, I didn't do it for the three and five year peaks (too much work, sorry). Additionally, while Lyons lost some time to WWII, he was at the end of his career, not ages 29 and 30 like Gordon
                      ....
                      Code:
                       
                      Gordon Lyons Raines Ortiz Ward
                      WAR 55.7 70.4 69.4 55.3 62.4
                      top 3 WAR 20.8 18.5 20.8 17.4 20.6
                      5 consec WAR 31.7 24.1 32.3 25.1 24.6
                      WAA 35.8 31.0 29.0 20.2 18.9
                      top 3 WAA 15.3 10.1 14.3 10.4 9.3
                      5 consec WAA 21.4 10.4 21.3 14.0 6.6
                      mvp shares 1.57 0.99 0.99 2.95 ---
                      all-star 9 1 7 10 ---
                      top 10 WAR 6 2 5 2 4



                      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jalbright View Post
                        For those putting Joe Gordon 8th,

                        Joe Gordon

                        My rating system says he’s in the clearly belongs group. He was average on the basepaths, but an excellent fielder. His defensive reputation was sterling, and, if we give him some reasonable credit for the years he lost in WWII to the service, he would have had the most fielding runs of any second baseman in history. Even with no adjustments due to his wartime service in PA, he would be 28th among all second sackers in history.

                        He does have a weakness in HOF terms: his average is 100th among 2B. That fact and his PA mean he’s 38th in hits and 40th in times on base. He’s 25th in runs scored at the position (Note: all career counting stats in this comment are adjusted for his time lost to military service). He was 17th among 2B in walks, and added excellent power for the position: 5th in isolated power, 9th in extra base hits, 4th in homers, and 9th in slugging percentage leading to 18th in total bases. He is also 12th in RBI. He was in the top 10 in his league 5 times each in runs, slugging percentage and RBI; 6 times in extra base hits; 7 times in position player WAR, and 9 times in homers. Wartime service and a .268 average are not sufficient reasons to keep a second basemen who was one of the greatest glovemen ever at the position with exceptional power for the position. When we compare his WAR and WAA to those who played either while he played or within five years of that time, Gordon is 10th in WAA and 13th in WAR. That's HOF territory, as we're talking about a 23 year period, so we'd expect 23 HOF position players. This group is more favorable to him, as many other top players had years lost to military service. He belongs.


                        I know he belongs behind Aaron, Jackie and Brett. But all of the other five? He lost time to WW II, but should that count against him?

                        Consider this, realizing Ward didn't have MVP awards in enough of his career to be fair, and never had all-star games, and while in the career numbers for Ward and Lyons, I included hitting and pitching, I didn't do it for the three and five year peaks (too much work, sorry). Additionally, while Lyons lost some time to WWII, he was at the end of his career, not ages 29 and 30 like Gordon
                        ....
                        Code:
                         
                        Gordon Lyons Raines Ortiz Ward
                        WAR 55.7 70.4 69.4 55.3 62.4
                        top 3 WAR 20.8 18.5 20.8 17.4 23.5
                        5 consec WAR 31.7 24.1 32.3 25.1 27.6
                        WAA 35.8 31.0 29.0 20.2 18.9
                        top 3 WAA 15.3 10.1 14.3 10.4 11.2
                        5 consec WAA 21.4 10.4 21.3 14.0 7.9
                        mvp shares 1.57 0.99 0.99 2.95 ---
                        all-star 9 1 7 10 ---
                        top 10 WAR 6 2 5 2 4


                        I cobbled together Ward's Top 3 and Top 5 Consecutive WAR and WAA, but I forgot about Lyons and then decided I myself was too lazy right down to tackle him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Damn, quite a group on the top half, pretty weak on the second, when your #4 is in the top half or top 1/3 of your HOF, we've got our hands full ranking these dudes.

                          1. Hank Aaron
                          2. Jackie Robinson
                          3. George Brett
                          4. Joe Gordon
                          5. Ted Lyons
                          6. Tim Raines
                          7. John Ward
                          8. David Ortiz

                          1. Vern Stephens
                          ​​​​​​2. Brian Giles
                          3. Tony Lazzeri
                          4. Darryl Strawberry
                          5. John Candelaria
                          6. Bob Welch
                          7. Curt Flood
                          8. Allie Reynolds
                          Last edited by Jar of Flies; 03-29-2020, 06:39 PM.
                          Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                          http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post

                            1. Vern Stephens
                            ​​​​​​2. Brian Giles
                            3. Tony Lazzeri
                            4. Darryl Strawberry
                            5. ?
                            This ballot is sufficient to count under the rules, though the top four will all be assigned 4th place and the bottom four 5th place, per the rule. I'd prefer you to finalize the last four spots, and you've got a few days to do so.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jalbright View Post

                              This ballot is sufficient to count under the rules, though the top four will all be assigned 4th place and the bottom four 5th place, per the rule. I'd prefer you to finalize the last four spots, and you've got a few days to do so.
                              Sounds good, was on mobile and working off memory, the first 12 should be fine, but need to sort out the bottom 4.
                              Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                              http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                              Comment

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