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Dustin Pedroia (In Retrospect)

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  • #16
    Utley was better than Pedroia. By a lot.

    Pedroia's chances would be better if he didn't let his BA drop to .299. He'll be the Kenny Lofton of infielders now.
    "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

    NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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    • #17
      HoF talent, not HoF longevity.

      A real shame: he was 1802/6000 for .3003 at the end of 2017, and the two unfortunate attempts to return in 18, 19 dropped him to 1805/6031 for a .2993 average.

      Some of us still care about traditional stats and .300 just looks pretty.

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      • #18
        Excellent player. Difficult for him.
        First than him goes Kent Utley, Cano of course( unless PEDs). After of those guys Altuve is knockin.With this hes going to have a hard time, because there are already many worthy guys on his position. Even Kinsler is a competition for him.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Yuri89 View Post
          Excellent player. Difficult for him.
          First than him goes Kent Utley, Cano of course( unless PEDs). After of those guys Altuve is knockin.With this hes going to have a hard time, because there are already many worthy guys on his position. Even Kinsler is a competition for him.
          Not to mention Whitaker, Grich, Randolph, and other worthies stuck in VC limbo

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
            Utley was better than Pedroia. By a lot.

            Pedroia's chances would be better if he didn't let his BA drop to .299. He'll be the Kenny Lofton of infielders now.
            How so? Lofton had a much longer career as you well know. Guessing you just mean his path through the BBWAA to the VC and such?

            Originally posted by Yuri89 View Post
            Excellent player. Difficult for him.
            First than him goes Kent Utley, Cano of course( unless PEDs). After of those guys Altuve is knockin.With this hes going to have a hard time, because there are already many worthy guys on his position. Even Kinsler is a competition for him.
            I was a big Kinsler fan. I wish he could have held on for 2000 hits (1999), 300 HR (257) and 1000 RBI (909) and then think he’d eventually make it. 29 second sackers have 2000 hits, only three have 300 HR, twenty have 1000 RBI, 14 have 1300 runs (Kinsler has 1243), only 9 have 450 doubles (he has 416). As it stands he retired 20th in SLG% among career second basemen and stole 243 bases with 2 gold gloves, was a good postseason performer and clubhouse guy. I think with those counting numbers and reputation he would get in via the VC in the end.

            After 2016 though his batting average kind of fell off a cliff and that was the beginning of the end. Tough to be productive when you can’t consistently hit the ball. I wonder what predicated the decline, maybe just old age. Which is basically irreversible if we’re talking about eye sight or bat speed. Pretty tough to make up for natural shortcomings with age in the most important stat.

            Originally posted by Cougar View Post
            Not to mention Whitaker, Grich, Randolph, and other worthies stuck in VC limbo
            I can’t believe Whitaker didn’t get in after Tram.
            Last edited by bluesky5; 06-07-2021, 07:46 PM.
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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            • #21
              Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

              How so? Lofton had a much longer career as you well know. Guessing you just mean his path through the BBWAA to the VC and such?



              I was a big Kinsler fan. I wish he could have held on for 2000 hits (1999), 300 HR (257) and 1000 RBI (909) and then think he’d eventually make it. 29 second sackers have 2000 hits, only three have 300 HR, twenty have 1000 RBI, 14 have 1300 runs (Kinsler has 1243), only 9 have 450 doubles (he has 416). As it stands he retired 20th in SLG% among career second basemen and stole 243 bases with 2 gold gloves, was a good postseason performer and clubhouse guy. I think with those counting numbers and reputation he would get in via the VC in the end.

              After 2016 though his batting average kind of fell off a cliff and that was the beginning of the end. Tough to be productive when you can’t consistently hit the ball. I wonder what predicated the decline, maybe just old age. Which is basically irreversible if we’re talking about eye sight or bat speed. Pretty tough to make up for natural shortcomings with age in the most important stat.



              I can’t believe Whitaker didn’t get in after Tram.
              Ive been a big Kinsler fan watching his career playout, the challenge for me on the raw stats is the home cooking of the Ballpark in Arlington, his home/road splits are rough.

              It felt like we had a golden age of 2b until Kinsler, Pedroia, and Zobrist aged out quickly, leaving only Cano and Utley as clear calls.
              Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
              http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

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              • #22
                I am surprised at all the pessimism about Pedroia's HOF prospects. Yes, his counting stats are a little light because of what was effectively a career-ending injury, but he has 1805 hits, which isn't bad. Bobby Grich has 1833, and Grich doesn't lack backers in these parts. (I stipulate Grich has about 80 more HR.)

                Pedroia has a MVP, a ROY, a decent number of ASG & GG against stiff competition at 2b, three WS rings (though he was injured in 2018) and a ton of postseason play. His rate stats are terrific for a middle infielder (they'd be pretty good for an outfielder) with an elite glove, and he really had a very elite glove...he was a Defensive Player of the Year and he's way up there on the defensive stat charts. Good baserunner, good clubhouse guy...every box is checked.

                Sure, a graceful decline would have been nice, but is it really mandatory? I think Pedroia accomplished about everything he could reasonably be expected to have done during his prime; I just can't really see what is lacking.

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                • #23
                  Here's a question: Why Dustin Pedroia if Nomar Garciaparra isn't in the HOF?

                  Nomar had a much higher peak than did Pedroia. He was, arguably, the Dizzy Dean of position players. Garciaparra was an unquestionably great player in his best years. Pedroia was, arguably, a very good player who had a couple of great years, but accumulated some chrome and leather (ROY and one (1) MVP). Garciaparra was never the MVP, but he had a far better peak, played a more critical defensive position. and could arguably be considered a peak value case in the Dizzy Dean tradition.

                  Pedroia's chances depend very much on being in the HOF gray area of second basemen. He's got his case. The question is why Pedroia and not Lou (75.1 WAR) Whitaker? Why Pedroia and not Jeff (377 HRs) Kent? Whitaker and Kent have more impressive credentials on their face; each of those would make for a better Keltner List essay. Indeed, why Pedroia and not Willie (65.9 WAR) Randolph? (To say nothing of Bobby Grich and his 71.0 WAR.) Pedroia's chances for the HOF are stunted because there are just too many guys that played 2B that he's just not better than. Sometimes, it's as simple as that.
                  "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                  NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                    Here's a question: Why Dustin Pedroia if Nomar Garciaparra isn't in the HOF?

                    Nomar had a much higher peak than did Pedroia. He was, arguably, the Dizzy Dean of position players. Garciaparra was an unquestionably great player in his best years. Pedroia was, arguably, a very good player who had a couple of great years, but accumulated some chrome and leather (ROY and one (1) MVP). Garciaparra was never the MVP, but he had a far better peak, played a more critical defensive position. and could arguably be considered a peak value case in the Dizzy Dean tradition.

                    Pedroia's chances depend very much on being in the HOF gray area of second basemen. He's got his case. The question is why Pedroia and not Lou (75.1 WAR) Whitaker? Why Pedroia and not Jeff (377 HRs) Kent? Whitaker and Kent have more impressive credentials on their face; each of those would make for a better Keltner List essay. Indeed, why Pedroia and not Willie (65.9 WAR) Randolph? (To say nothing of Bobby Grich and his 71.0 WAR.) Pedroia's chances for the HOF are stunted because there are just too many guys that played 2B that he's just not better than. Sometimes, it's as simple as that.
                    I consider Pedroia/Nomar to be pretty comparable to earlier Red Sox greats Bobby Doerr and Vern Stephens. I never really understood why Doerr is in the HOF and not Stephens. I think when you have some ridiculous numbers like Stephens and Nomar had then it's instinct to just kind of write the guy off.

                    From 1948 to 1950 Stephens averaged per 162 games 35 HR and 156 RBI. Nomar from 1998-2000 averaged per 162 games 226 hits 51 doubles 33 HR, 125 RBI .350 BA. In a way I almost think that they were TOO good.

                    Of course there's always the steroid factor.
                    Last edited by willshad; 06-10-2021, 01:58 PM.

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                    • #25
                      The only shots Junior Stephens ever got were whiskey.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                        Here's a question: Why Dustin Pedroia if Nomar Garciaparra isn't in the HOF?

                        Nomar had a much higher peak than did Pedroia. He was, arguably, the Dizzy Dean of position players. Garciaparra was an unquestionably great player in his best years. Pedroia was, arguably, a very good player who had a couple of great years, but accumulated some chrome and leather (ROY and one (1) MVP). Garciaparra was never the MVP, but he had a far better peak, played a more critical defensive position. and could arguably be considered a peak value case in the Dizzy Dean tradition.

                        Pedroia's chances depend very much on being in the HOF gray area of second basemen. He's got his case. The question is why Pedroia and not Lou (75.1 WAR) Whitaker? Why Pedroia and not Jeff (377 HRs) Kent? Whitaker and Kent have more impressive credentials on their face; each of those would make for a better Keltner List essay. Indeed, why Pedroia and not Willie (65.9 WAR) Randolph? (To say nothing of Bobby Grich and his 71.0 WAR.) Pedroia's chances for the HOF are stunted because there are just too many guys that played 2B that he's just not better than. Sometimes, it's as simple as that.
                        Nomar had no shortage of fame either. He was as much a pop culture icon as Jeter with the SNL skit, dating Mia Ham, the relatively new between pitch routine and jump throw from the hole - both acts much loved by kids and much loathed by adults.
                        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                          Nomar had no shortage of fame either. He was as much a pop culture icon as Jeter with the SNL skit, dating Mia Ham, the relatively new between pitch routine and jump throw from the hole - both acts much loved by kids and much loathed by adults.
                          And he saved two women from drowning in Boston Harbour.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I think the way Nomar kind of lost it all at once is deleterious to his case, just aesthetically; that's not really fair, but guys like that seem to have fared poorly in the past. To a degree that's true of Pedroia too, but in Pedey's case there's a clear reason why.

                            The comparison is a valid one to a point, but we can make too much of it too;.Nomar and Pedey were very different players, and their careers had distinctly different arcs, especially after the first couple seasons. Pedroia basically was the same player from his rookie year until Machado's takeout slide, while Nomar was a shooting star that crashed and burned rather suddenly, other than his brief revival with the Dodgers. High peak, short career vs. lower peak sustained for about twice as long. Nomar's case is also mostly all bat, while Pedey's argument leans much more on defense.

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