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2023 Today's Game Ballot - Best Manager Candidates

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    dgarza
    Registered User

  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    I missed this post initially. I'm basically in agreement, but to nitpick, the difference between losing in six versus seven seems to be slicing matters awfully finely. Are your rankings based on some kind of point system?
    That just goes to show how close Dusty and the Lip are in my rankings; a whisker seperates them. My manager rankings are something I've only recently gone into detail with, trying to come up with a more meaningful listing. It's no more than a year old and I've tweaked it a few times, with possibly more tweaking in the future, who knows. So, yes, there are certain elements of "points" involved.

    The big issue with Dusty is that his postseason record is so disappointing. He's maganed in the postseason 11 times, so he's had plenty of opportunities to do something. In his first 9 postseasons, he managed to have a postseason record over .500 just once; 4 times did he have a .250 record or worse (shutout in the winning % 3 times).

    I believe I had upgraded him right before the WS this year. That put him over Durocher. But the difference in his postseason winning % before and after the 2021 WS is enough for me to bump him down a tad.

    Postseason % before 2021 WS = .487
    Postseason % w/ 7-game 2021 WS = .482
    Postseason % after 2021 WS = .472

    WS % before 2021 WS = .429
    WS % w/ 7-game 2021 WS = .429
    WS % after 2021 WS = .384

    Leave a comment:

  • Stieb37
    Registered User

  • Stieb37
    replied
    1. Davey Johnson
    2. Jim Leyland
    3. Dusty Baker
    4. Lou Piniella
    5. Charlie Manuel
    6. Cito Gaston
    7. Mike Hargrove
    8. Tom Kelly
    9. Bobby Valentine
    10. Jack McKeon

    Leave a comment:

  • Cougar
    Registered User

  • Cougar
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post

    In the middle of this year's playoffs, I had Dusty Baker and Davey Johnson very close to each other in my managerial rankings, with only Leo Durocher between them. Dusty was first on that list. Had the Astros at least taken the WS to 7 games with a loss, my ranking would have remained the same, I would still have him first, but now that all's said and done, he drops below Durocher, but still ahead of Davey. All fine HOF candidates regardless.
    I missed this post initially. I'm basically in agreement, but to nitpick, the difference between losing in six versus seven seems to be slicing matters awfully finely. Are your rankings based on some kind of point system?

    I'm not sure it's on Dusty that the Astro offense couldn't muster a single run last night - jeez, did anyone even reach third base? (Reminds me of high school.) He did probably pull his starting pitcher one batter (Soler) too late, though, so there's that.

    Leave a comment:

  • Cougar
    Registered User

  • Cougar
    replied
    A couple of comments based on previous posts.

    1. It's not really so that Baker simply rolled the ball onto the field and let Bonds, Sosa, Harper etc. win for him. It wasn't all inherited talent.

    After his 103-win second place debut season in 1993 (the last great pennant race before the wild card robbed it of some luster), the Giants had a few quite lean years in the mid 1990s. Baker nurtured an almost entirely new group (other than Barry, granted) into a consistent contender pennant winner.

    In addition, when Dusty signed on with Cincinnati, the Reds were ensconced in the second division; he presided over a short rebuild and got to the playoffs three of his last four seasons (out of six).

    2. That said, sure he inherited good situations, especially in Chicago, Washington and Houston. But there's something to be said for not letting a good thing get screwed up. Keeping Bonds and Kent from killing each other was a minor miracle, and shepherding Houston through the trash can scandal was the best locker room management feat since Joe Torre (largely) tamed George Steinbrenner.

    3. I'll readily concede that Baker's in-game strategery was often less than stellar, and he used to be rightly known as an abuser of young pitching arms. I would however suggest he's improved on both fronts.

    The Wood-Prior fiascos in Chicago in particular seemed to trigger a come-to-Jesus epiphany in terms of how Dusty handled pitching staffs. And he's proven himself to be amenable to modern metrics and strategies, while not being subservient to them. (Looking at you, Kevin Cash.)

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    Baker will get his old watch election to the HOF. He was never that great of a manager, IMO. More someone who could hold down the fort so to speak.

    Leave a comment:

  • dgarza
    Registered User

  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post
    Maybe it's recency bias, but even despite the Astros falling in this year's WS, I think Dusty moves ahead of Davey Johnson anyway.

    No slight to Davey, for whom I have immense regard, but Baker has just left a tremendous mark on MLB and failing to induct him would be indefensible.

    I've amended the above post.
    In the middle of this year's playoffs, I had Dusty Baker and Davey Johnson very close to each other in my managerial rankings, with only Leo Durocher between them. Dusty was first on that list. Had the Astros at least taken the WS to 7 games with a loss, my ranking would have remained the same, I would still have him first, but now that all's said and done, he drops below Durocher, but still ahead of Davey. All fine HOF candidates regardless.

    Leave a comment:

  • Chadwick
    Rolen on to Cooperstown

  • Chadwick
    replied
    IMO Dusty Baker is not a great manager, but rather a successful one who consistently underachieved with good teams which he was blessed to inherit. That said it would be unjust to exclude him from Cooperstown everyone else with his resume is enshrined. Managers are judged (for the Hall of Fame) by winning and Baker's teams have done that to an extraordinary level. The outcome of this World Series, had it been different, would only be the cherry on top of that sundae, but Baker's punched his ticket and his election is a foregone conclusion, whatever the future holds.

    Leave a comment:

  • Cougar
    Registered User

  • Cougar
    replied
    Maybe it's recency bias, but even despite the Astros falling in this year's WS, I think Dusty moves ahead of Davey Johnson anyway.

    No slight to Davey, for whom I have immense regard, but Baker has just left a tremendous mark on MLB and failing to induct him would be indefensible.

    I've amended the above post.

    Leave a comment:

  • dgarza
    Registered User

  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Cougar View Post

    (b) Dusty goes to #1 with a WS win.
    He would easily for me as well.

    Leave a comment:

  • Los Bravos
    Milwaukee Braves, too!

  • Los Bravos
    replied
    1. Baker
    2. Piniella
    3. Leyland
    4. Gaston
    5. Johnson
    6. Alou
    7. Kelly
    8. Hargrove
    9. Manuel
    10. Oates

    Johnnie B is over the line for me as are Sweet Lou and Pa Leyland. Cases can be made for Cito and Davey.

    Leave a comment:

  • pedrosrotatorcuff
    Dan Duquette ruined me

  • pedrosrotatorcuff
    replied
    1. Dusty
    2. Jim (Leyland)
    3. Davey
    4. Lou
    – – HOF cutoff – –
    5. Charlie
    6. Felipe
    7. Cito
    8. Tom
    9. Jack
    10. Bobby

    after that, who cares

    Leave a comment:

  • Cougar
    Registered User

  • Cougar
    replied


    I'll go to 15, just because I already have them done (a).

    1. Dusty Baker
    2. Davey Johnson
    3. Lou Piniella
    4. Jim Leyland
    *******No-brainer line*******
    5. Charlie Manuel
    6. Cito Gaston
    7. Tom Kelly
    8. Jack McKeon
    9. Felipe Alou
    10. Roger Craig
    11. Bobby Valentine
    12. Mike Hargrove
    13. Jim Fregosi
    14. Phil Garner
    15. Art Howe

    Notes:

    (a) Playing credit applied; also coaching (Piniella, Manuel as noted hitting coaches; Craig as noted pitching coach), executive credit (McKeon, Kelly), scouting (Fregosi), and pioneer/miscellaneous (Baker, Gaston, Valentine).
    Cougar
    Registered User
    Last edited by Cougar; 11-03-2021, 05:53 AM. Reason: Edited - Bumped Dusty to #1

    Leave a comment:

  • henrich
    athr: For Argument's Sake

  • henrich
    replied
    1. Dusty Baker
    2. Davey Johnson
    3. Jim Leyland
    4. Tom Kelly
    5. Lou Pinella
    6. Jack Mckeon
    7. Cito Gaston
    8. Charlie Manuel
    9. Felipe Alou
    10. Terry Collins

    Leave a comment:

  • dgarza
    Registered User

  • dgarza
    replied

    1. Jim Leyland
    2. Charlie Manuel
    3. Dusty Baker
    4. Davey Johnson
    ----- Solid HOF -----
    5. Cito Gaston
    6. Lou Piniella
    7. Tom Kelly
    ----- Big HOF -----
    8. Jack McKeon
    9. Mike Hargrove
    10. Bobby Valentine

    Leave a comment:


  • jjpm74
    replied
    To me, there is Dusty Baker then a bunch of guys who do not deserve serious consideration. Johnson would be #2 and he only really has 1986 going for him. The rest can get their nice watch for years of service.

    Leave a comment:

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