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  • Mazeroski: What a Farce

    http://baseballpiggies.blogspot.com/
    Baseball articles you might not like but should read.

  • #2
    That guy should come over to this site; he might learn a few things. There are several dozen posters here who know more about HoF standards. While it's true that Maz is a very questionable pick, he doesn't make a particularly good case. Maz shouldn't be in the Hall because he wasn't as good as Hornsby? Come on. The fact that he considers Derek Jeter an obvious HoFer, but Gary Carter a mistake, pretty much wrecks his credibility.

    Comment


    • #3
      Several excellent points were made. If the HOF is for the best of the best, then there is an inconsistency if Hornsby and Mazeroski both are members.

      How can anyone claim that a .260 hitter is a Hall of Famer (unless he is a pitcher). The only defensive player who can prevent enough runs to get into the HOF with a .260 lifetime batting average would have to be a pitcher.

      Ever see Gary Carter's statistics?

      How do they compare to Dickey, Cochrane, Berra, Campanella, Hartnett, or Bench?

      HOF membership, by its definition, requires great requirements and even greater limitations on membership.

      Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer.

      Jeter is the ultimate winner
      By: John Kruk


      As the baseball season comes into the home stretch,
      there's one player who continues to amaze me. No, not
      Barry Bonds or Adrian Beltre. Sure, those guys are
      having great years, but the guy who blows me away
      every time I see him is Derek Jeter.

      I broke into the majors in 1986; and since that time,
      I've either been in games, been watching games or been
      talking to guys who have done both. And with all that
      information, I'm sold on Jeter. If I started a team
      today, he's the first guy I'd want. No question.

      See, you want a guy who is all about winning. It's the
      first and last thing he thinks about.

      Yeah, there are guys out there who hustle and say they
      want to win, but it doesn't consume them the way it
      consumes Jeter. When it's game time, Jeter isn't out
      there to be your buddy and say "nice play" if you get
      him out. He's out there to kick your butt.

      Wanting to win to that degree isn't something you can
      practice. Very few guys have that desire. Larry Bird
      had it. Michael Jordan had it. There are many people
      out there that look at Alex Rodriguez this way.

      Well, Alex may be one of the best players in the game,
      but he definitely doesn't have what Jeter has. When
      the Yankees made the trade for A-Rod, there was all
      sorts of talk that Jeter shouldn't play short. The
      best player on the team should, and everyone said that
      was A-Rod. Well, I'll tell you -- Joe Torre did the
      right thing. He put his best player at short.

      Now, I know people can throw all kinds of numbers at
      me, telling me why there are better players out there
      than Jeter. I know all that stuff. I'll be the first
      to admit that Jeter isn't the best hitter. He isn't
      the best shortstop or the best baserunner, either. But
      you put what he has all together, and you'd be crazy
      not to make him the cornerstone of your team.

      Yes, Bonds will probably break Hank Aaron's home run
      record; and a few years later, A-Rod might even catch
      him. Even knowing all that, I'll still take Jeter.

      A couple of weeks ago, I was up in Boston talking to
      Curt Schilling. Jeter walks by, and Curt asks me,
      "Hey, you think that guy's any good?" Well, let me
      tell you: In baseball talk, that question means one
      thing -- and it isn't, "Is this guy any good?" It's
      more like, "How is this guy that good?"

      Schilling doesn't fear many people when he's on the
      mound, but I'll tell you: He fears Jeter. And he isn't
      alone. You won't find a pitcher in the AL who likes to
      face this guy, especially with the game on the line.
      And it isn't like Jeter just started playing like
      this. He's been doing it ever since he came to the
      Yankees in '96.

      Look at the 2001 Divsion Series against the A's. Yeah,
      I'm talking about "the play" -- the one where Jeter
      flipped the ball to Jorge Posada at home to get Jeremy
      Giambi. I still remember watching that. I saw Jeter
      going over to the first-base line and I said, "What
      the heck is he doing over there? That can't be right."
      You never see a shortstop playing over there. On a
      play like that, the shortstop is just another
      spectator. Not Jeter. Not with his instincts.

      I know a lot has been made of that one play. I'm using
      it because it's one of the few that everyone talks
      about, and because it represents what I'm trying to
      tell you. If you want to see how the game is supposed
      to be played, go give George Steinbrenner some of your
      money, buy a ticket and watch Jeter.

      I hope my son learns to love baseball in time to see
      Jeter play. If he does and he wants to play the game
      more, then I'm going to teach him to model his game
      after Derek, not after me. And if he does that, maybe
      he can take care of his daddy when he gets a little
      older. That being said, there's still one thing that
      Jeter can't do for the Yankees. He can't pitch.
      Baseball articles you might not like but should read.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by LouGehrig
        Ever see Gary Carter's statistics?

        How do they compare to Dickey, Cochrane, Berra, Campanella, Hartnett, or Bench?

        HOF membership, by its definition, requires great requirements and even greater limitations on membership.
        Dickey, Cochrane, and Hartnett compiled their numbers in one of best offensive eras ever, while Carter did his in one of the worst offensive eras ever. Despite this disadvantage, Carter has more hits, home runs, and RBI then Dickey, Cochrane, and Hartnett. Plus there are era adjustments in terms of league quality to be made.

        That being said, I put Cochrane and Hartnett ahead of Carter, and Dickey one spot behind because most of Dickey's power came at home (he has the highest percentage of home homeruns ever by someone with at least 200 career homeruns, the split is something like 3-1). That puts Carter in the latter half of my top 10 (9th actually), and I think someone who can claim to be among the 10 best players all-time at his position, certainly belongs in the Hall. If your standars for the hall are only the Benches and Berra's, then the Hall would have maybe 30-40 members. The Hall is meant to be bigger than that, and Carter is certainly within the realm of deservedness (Mazeroski however, is much more debatable).

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        • #5
          When Jeter made 'the play' that caught Jeremy Giambi doing the 'Two-Step' instead of coming in hard at home was my 'ah-hah- moment on the greatness of Jeter. I don't get the chance to watch him day in and day out but that single play stands out in my mind as something very special. Few in the ballpark or at home on the Barca-Lounger expected him to be there to do that. Yet he did it. It was a combination of athletism and heads up play that defines a special player.
          Johnny
          Delusion, Life's Coping Mechanism

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by LouGehrig
            How can anyone claim that a .260 hitter is a Hall of Famer (unless he is a pitcher). The only defensive player who can prevent enough runs to get into the HOF with a .260 lifetime batting average would have to be a pitcher.
            So you have a new nick, ElHalo?
            So Reggie Jackson & Killebrew aren't good enough?
            The guy on the blog thinks Koufax is the best pitcher ever
            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

            Comment


            • #7
              That's just some cliche rambling from Kruk. He can have Jeter, I'll take Pujols and he can watch me win the World Series from the club house on the golf course.

              I think Jeter's a HOFer, but let's get real here.

              As for the blogger, well he'd choose Koufax with his first choice- 'nuff said.

              I'll take Ruth and Cobb thank you very much, maybe Wagner- just for to have the defense at SS too, but that's not important.

              Maz was not a great HOF choice, but the article wasn't particularly convincing either.

              Oh, and give "the play" a rest already. I mean this is one isolated post season event in Jeter's career that has grown into the foundation of his legend...hey wait a minute- doesn't sound a little like Maz?
              THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

              In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by digglahhh
                Oh, and give "the play" a rest already. I mean this is one isolated post season event in Jeter's career that has grown into the foundation of his legend...hey wait a minute- doesn't sound a little like Maz?
                But Maz's HR went against a, uh, certain team
                Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                Comment


                • #9
                  True, and for that reason I'm sure Maz has his OWN WING in your personal HOF.
                  THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                  In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by digglahhh
                    True, and for that reason I'm sure Maz has his OWN WING in your personal HOF.
                    He has his own HALL What a great year to be born
                    Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                    Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If we're stepping into the "greatness beyond the numbers" zone, maybe we should talk about the real case for Mazeroski being in the Hall. I may be mistaken, maybe someone who has played or knows someone who played professionally would know better, but as I understand Mazeroski changed the way people play second base. Every second baseman since the mid-60s has copied his style. That's a real and lasting impact on the game, the sort of thing that could (and maybe should) get a player HoF recognition even when his career falls short of the Hall standard.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by digglahhh
                        That's just some cliche rambling from Kruk. He can have Jeter, I'll take Pujols and he can watch me win the World Series from the club house on the golf course.

                        I think Jeter's a HOFer, but let's get real here.

                        As for the blogger, well he'd choose Koufax with his first choice- 'nuff said.

                        I'll take Ruth and Cobb thank you very much, maybe Wagner- just for to have the defense at SS too, but that's not important.

                        Maz was not a great HOF choice, but the article wasn't particularly convincing either.

                        Oh, and give "the play" a rest already. I mean this is one isolated post season event in Jeter's career that has grown into the foundation of his legend...hey wait a minute- doesn't sound a little like Maz?
                        Give 'the play' a rest? That's a Willie Mays moment. :grouchy
                        It ranks right up there among the best.
                        Name a comparable moment in the last ten years.
                        Johnny
                        Delusion, Life's Coping Mechanism

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by johnny
                          Give 'the play' a rest? That's a Willie Mays moment. :grouchy
                          It ranks right up there among the best.
                          Name a comparable moment in the last ten years.
                          Hey, remember that play where the shortstop dove into the stands to catch a foul ball and save the game?

                          Huh? No, not Jeter. I mean Juan Uribe of the White Sox, in the deciding game of the World Series. But no one will remember that play, since it wasn't Yankees - Red Sox.

                          How about the Luis Gonzalez bloop single to win the 2001 WS, the Angels 6-run rally in the last three innings of game 6 in 2002, the Josh Beckett shutout in game 6 2003... oh yeah, and the 2004 ALCS was pretty memorable.

                          I might be taking this thread off topic, so here's a question: would Mazeroski be in the Hall of Fame:
                          A) if he hadn't have hit that home run? (even assuming the Pirates still win)
                          B) if he had hit that home run against any team other than the Yankees?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes, Mazeroski would still be in the Hall of Fame.
                            Baseball articles you might not like but should read.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by abacab
                              Hey, remember that play where the shortstop dove into the stands to catch a foul ball and save the game?

                              Huh? No, not Jeter. I mean Juan Uribe of the White Sox, in the deciding game of the World Series. But no one will remember that play, since it wasn't Yankees - Red Sox.

                              How about the Luis Gonzalez bloop single to win the 2001 WS, the Angels 6-run rally in the last three innings of game 6 in 2002, the Josh Beckett shutout in game 6 2003... oh yeah, and the 2004 ALCS was pretty memorable.

                              I might be taking this thread off topic, so here's a question: would Mazeroski be in the Hall of Fame:
                              A) if he hadn't have hit that home run? (even assuming the Pirates still win)
                              B) if he had hit that home run against any team other than the Yankees?
                              Those are great plays to be sure and I am not taking anything away from it but the Jeter play was like out of nowhere. A real combination of athletism and heads up play that is rare. I mean, when you saw it live didn't it just shock the heck out of you? It shocked a pro like Kruk who is a student of the game. It sure as heck shocked a schmuck like me swilling beer out in Seattle!

                              PS: I don't know that Maz wouldn't have made it without the homerun. It sure didn't hurt!
                              Last edited by johnny; 02-23-2006, 04:13 PM.
                              Johnny
                              Delusion, Life's Coping Mechanism

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