Dick Allen or Albert Belle?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Which player has the stronger Hall of Fame case?

[scottmitchell74]

Allen's 11-year peak in the toughest post deadball era is shocking. He should have been in 40 years ago.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Allen's 11-year peak in the toughest post deadball era is shocking. He should have been in 40 years ago.

Allen should have been elected in 2014. Bob Watson was on the committee. But he became ill and couldn't attend to voting. Watson was going to vote for Allen. His replacement did NOT vote for Allen. Allen fell one vote short. Allen has since passed away.

[willshad]

I think Belle was a bit better. His three year peak is just crazy, and we have to remember that it would have been even better without the strike. We also should remember that he was contending against juicers for relative rates. Additionally, I know people hate RBI and it was a different era, but for his career Belle per 162 games averaged 41 doubles, 40 HR, and 130 RBI opposed to just 30, 33 and 104 for Allen.

But really, they're more or less the same guy, with similar HOF cases.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I think Belle was a bit better. His three year peak is just crazy, and we have to remember that it would have been even better without the strike. We also should remember that he was contending against juicers for relative rates. Additionally, I know people hate RBI and it was a different era, but for his career Belle per 162 games averaged 41 doubles, 40 HR, and 130 RBI opposed to just 30, 33 and 104 for Allen.

But really, they're more or less the same guy, with similar HOF cases.

The difference in era is HUGE and it simply cannot be dismissed. This how large the difference is.

Allen 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+
Belle 1996: .311/.410/.623, 1.033 OPS, 158 OPS+

Their respective OPS are almost identical as are their slash lines. But the difference in OPS+ is rather large. . Belle finished 6th in OPS+, 38 points behind the league leader. Allen led the NL with his 181 OPS+ by 17 points. The next seven hitters behind Allen in OPS+ are all Hall of Famers; Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Ron Santo, Joe Torre, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente. and Hank Aaron. That Allen had THAT much distance between himself and seven future Hall of Famers is astounding.

[scottmitchell74]

The difference in era is HUGE and it simply cannot be dismissed. This how large the difference is.

Allen 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+
Belle 1996: .311/.410/.623, 1.033 OPS, 158 OPS+

Their respective OPS are almost identical as are their slash lines. But the difference in OPS+ is rather large. . Belle finished 6th in OPS+, 38 points behind the league leader. Allen led the NL with his 181 OPS+ by 17 points. The next seven hitters behind Allen in OPS+ are all Hall of Famers; Willie McCovey, Willie Stargell, Ron Santo, Joe Torre, Willie Mays, Roberto Clemente. and Hank Aaron. That Allen had THAT much distance between himself and seven future Hall of Famers is astounding.

That really does an excellent job of highlighting the difference in eras. Allen was well an truly robbed of being celebrated during his life.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

That really does an excellent job of highlighting the difference in eras. Allen was well an truly robbed of being celebrated during his life.

Yeah, that and the short career were the main reasons he wasn't elected by the writers. I support both Allen and Belle for the Hall of Fame but if I could only vote for one player I'd pick Allen just slightly over Belle based on the fact that Allen's peak lasted 11 seasons while Belle's peak lasted eight seasons.

[NJRob65]

Allen's 11-year peak in the toughest post deadball era is shocking. He should have been in 40 years ago.

Correct, very astute observation.

[willshad]

That really does an excellent job of highlighting the difference in eras. Allen was well an truly robbed of being celebrated during his life.

Again, how much of this was due to the steroid guys? If we adjust for this, then their OPS+ scores are probably very similar.

Also, I don't really buy the theory that Allen's era was so difficult for guys to put up great numbers. Some of his contemporaries include Aaron, Clemente, F Robinson, Killebrew, Mathews, Reggie, Stargell, Mays, McCovey, Yaz, etc, all of whom had at least 450 HR and/or 3000 hits, and all of whom were at least as good with the bat as Allen at various points. Allen clearly isn't in the same group as any of these guys, and may be closer to the next group down, which includes Frank Howard, Reggie Smith, Boog Powell etc.

I think he has a HOF case (as does Belle), but he isn't as clear cut as some people seem to believe. They both probably had 3/4 of a HOF career compared to their contemporaries.

[Otis Nixon's Bodyguard]

Perhaps I'm biased, but I voted "they are equal." Albert Belle was one of the best hitters in all of MLB during the mid-90s.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Again, how much of this was due to the steroid guys? If we adjust for this, then their OPS+ scores are probably very similar.

Also, I don't really buy the theory that Allen's era was so difficult for guys to put up great numbers. Some of his contemporaries include Aaron, Clemente, F Robinson, Killebrew, Mathews, Reggie, Stargell, Mays, McCovey, Yaz, etc, all of whom had at least 450 HR and/or 3000 hits, and all of whom were at least as good with the bat as Allen at various points. Allen clearly isn't in the same group as any of these guys, and may be closer to the next group down, which includes Frank Howard, Reggie Smith, Boog Powell etc.

I think he has a HOF case (as does Belle), but he isn't as clear cut as some people seem to believe. They both probably had 3/4 of a HOF career compared to their contemporaries.

How do you explain this?

Allen 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+
Belle 1996: .311/.410/.623, 1.033 OPS, 158 OPS+

They both basically have the same slash line and the same OPS but their OPS+'s are vastly different. The balance between hitting and pitching was different. In 1966 the pitchers had the upper hand. In 1996 he hitters had the upper hand. Allen had 40 HR, 110 RBI, and 112 RBI. Belle had 48 HR, 148 RBI, 124 RBI. Belle had far superior hitters around him than Allen did.

Team OPS+
1966 Philies 95 OPS+
1996 Indians 113 OPS+

The difference is massive.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Allen's 11-year peak in the toughest post deadball era is shocking. He should have been in 40 years ago.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Short documentary on Albert Belle.

[willshad]

How do you explain this?

Allen 1966: .317/.396/.632, 1.027 OPS, 181 OPS+
Belle 1996: .311/.410/.623, 1.033 OPS, 158 OPS+

They both basically have the same slash line and the same OPS but their OPS+'s are vastly different. The balance between hitting and pitching was different. In 1966 the pitchers had the upper hand. In 1996 he hitters had the upper hand. Allen had 40 HR, 110 RBI, and 112 RBI. Belle had 48 HR, 148 RBI, 124 RBI. Belle had far superior hitters around him than Allen did.

Team OPS+
1966 Philies 95 OPS+
1996 Indians 113 OPS+

The difference is massive.

We all know why hitters had the advantage in 1996. Do you really think that clean Dick Allen playing in 1996 does better than Belle did? No way, no how. Is he getting 50/50 or 152 RBI? Allen played during a time when you could go 23 77 .307 and lead the league with a 174 OPS+. Belle had half seasons way better than that.

It's not rocket science. Both guys were great hitters for about ten seasons, with three or four of those seasons being super-great. Belle was slightly better at his absolute peak, while Allen had couple more seasons near that level. Allen had better relative rates because he wasn't competing with juicers, and Belle had better raw numbers because there was more scoring in his era.

But let's be honest...both eras produced a bunch of guys who ended up with great counting stats, and neither of these guys quite lived up to those standards. You can't excuse Allen's low counting numbers due to his era, because a lot of players from that era managed to do just fine.

[Cougar]

I voted equal. It's a very close call. The era adjustment is the best argument for Allen, and it might well be dispositive, but the rejoinder that Belle was competing against 'roiders mitigate that somewhat -- assuming Belle wasn't juicing himself!

(It's well-established that Albert had a very short fuse to a big bomb. 'Roid rage? And the degenerative hip thing that ended his career was weird and seemed to be similar to some injuries known PED users suffered. I assume innocence as a general rule, but there are reasons to be suspicious.)

They were both subpar defenders; Allen was a little worse, but he did play a lot of third base, as well as first base and a little left field. Belle could play either outfield corner, but usually played left. Allen was a little bit better on the bases, but probably not enough to matter much.

Hey, they should both have been in the Hall long ago. Allen has had the longer wait and the era adjustment is a trump card, but on the other hand I believe Belle is routinely underrated now for basically the same reasons (mostly off-field unpleasantness and clubhouse problems) as Allen was in the 1980s and 1990s when his transgressions were better remembered.