Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 2 – 1910’s/20’s

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 2 – 1910’s/20’s

    Welcome to The Ultimate Quest for Candidates – Round 2. This thread will have the first poll in the second round, combining the leading players from the polls for the 1910’s and the 1920’s. Refer to the earlier threads for discussion and links to biographies.

    There will be 15 players on the ballot. You will be asked to vote for 5 (FIVE) players. These 12 players automatically advanced to this round by their top finishes in the Round 1 polls:

    86% Sherry Magee
    82% Heinie Groh
    80% Urban Shocker
    80% Carl Mays
    75% Larry Doyle
    72% Wally Schang
    71% Bobby Veach
    61% Gavy Cravath
    57% George J. Burns
    54 % Wilbur Cooper
    48% Dolf Luque
    47% Jack Fournier

    We need to decide who will get the other three spots on the ballot. There are nine runners-up who are under consideration:

    39% Firpo Marberry
    36% Hippo Vaughn
    36% Babe Adams
    36% Cy Williams
    27% Jack Quinn
    25% Ken Williams
    21% Jake Daubert
    18% Joe Wood
    18% Ed Konetchy

    My personal picks are Quinn for sure and probably Konetchy and Wood. Your input on this issue is strongly requested as we look to develop a consensus.

    Below are the players we voted as the top 21 HOF candidates whose careers centered in the 1910’s and 1920’s.
    Code:
    Pos	BJ	Player Name	 Win Shares	 WARP3	             other
    7	#26	George J Burns	(295: 35-34-31)	(76.7: 10.4-9.7-9.3)	
    1	#55	Wilbur	Cooper	(266: 31-27-27)	(68.2: 9.4-8.1-7.6)	
    9	#29	Gavy	Cravath	(204: 35-29-28)	(51.5: 10.4-7.5-6.7)	
    4	#20	Larry	Doyle	(292: 33-29-28)	(69.2: 7.8-7.6-7.1)	
    3	#35	Jack	Fournier(231: 34-29-28)	(60.6: 9.0-8.6-7.6)	
    5	#21	Heinie	Groh	(277: 37-33-30)	(93.9: 11.7-10.6-10.3)	
    1	#90	Dolf	Luque	(241: 39-27-23)	(74.4: 13.7-10.2-7.0)	
    7	#21	Sherry	Magee	(356: 38-36-31)	(92.9: 9.7-8.4-8.3)	
    1	#38	Carl	Mays	(256: 35-30-27)	(79.4: 10.0-8.9-8.6)	
    2	#20	Wally	Schang	(245: 20-20-19)	(77.7: 8.4-6.7-6.6)	
    1	#71	Urban	Shocker	(225: 30-29-25)	(77.9: 11.3-10.0-8.7)	
    7	#33	Bobby	Veach	(269: 35-31-30)	(84.1: 10.8-10.6-9.1)	
    1	#93	Babe	Adams	(246: 30-29-25)	(63.6: 10.3-8.1-7.7)	x
    3	#61	Jake	Daubert	(265: 27-24-24)	(85.2: 8.0-7.9-7.7)	x
    3	#48	Ed	Konetchy(285: 27-26-26)	(81.9: 8.5-8.1-7.8)	x
    1	---	Firpo	Marberry(177: 26-20-20)	(51.9: 10.5-5.9-5.6)	x
    1	---	Jack	Quinn	(280: 27-22-19)	(89.9: 9.1-7.1-6.7)	x
    1	#96	Hippo	Vaughn	(210: 33-30-24)	(59.0: 9.3-8.6-8.2)	x
    8	#75	Cy	Williams(235: 24-21-19)	(63.1: 7.7-5.5-5.3)	x
    7	#50	Ken	Williams(202: 30-29-27)	(57.7: 9.6-8.5-6.0)	military age 28
    1	#94	Joe	Wood	(195: 44-26-20)	(57.3: 13.2-9.3-8.1)	x
    Pos – primary position(s)
    BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001)
    Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
    WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years

    Some other things to be aware of:
    1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
    2) Win shares in Federal League play are discounted 15%. Quinn’s 1914 was lowered from 32 to 27 and his career lowered from 287 to 280; Konetchy’s 1915 was lowered from 27 to 23 and his career lowered from 287 to 283. YMMV, but some discount is clearly in order; the FL was a AAAA league, if that.
    3) WARP3 attempts to account for league strength; players like Doyle, Magee, Cravath, Cooper and Cy Williams are sharply discounted for the supposed inferiority of the NL in the teens.
    4) You are free to credit players with minor league or foreign league play. I have not attempted this, but the guys at the Hall of Merit have. Cravath, Quinn, Luque, Fournier and K. Williams are five players who lost productive years due to being held out of MLB by powers beyond their control.
    5) Win shares during 1918-19 are increased for those short seasons. The 1918 season is also discounted due to many players being in military service. Players get a 7% increase for 1918 and a 10% increase for 1919. For most players, this adds 2-3 WS to their careers. Burns, Groh and Vaughn each added five.

    That leaves 15 players that dropped out of consideration after Round 1: Donie Bush, Jimmie Dykes, Art Fletcher, Larry Gardner, Charlie Grimm, Sam Jones, Joe Judge, Clyde Milan, Roger Peckinpaugh, Del Pratt, Eddie Rommel, Frank Schulte, Bob Shawkey, Riggs Stephenson and George Uhle. Each of these candidates drew less than 15% support.
    95
    Babe Adams
    4.21%
    4
    George J Burns
    2.11%
    2
    Wilbur Cooper
    5.26%
    5
    Gavy Cravath
    7.37%
    7
    Larry Doyle
    13.68%
    13
    Jack Fournier
    0.00%
    0
    Heinie Groh
    14.74%
    14
    Ed Konetchy
    0.00%
    0
    Dolf Luque
    0.00%
    0
    Sherry Magee
    17.89%
    17
    Carl Mays
    18.95%
    18
    Jack Quinn
    0.00%
    0
    Wally Schang
    9.47%
    9
    Urban Shocker
    4.21%
    4
    Bobby Veach
    2.11%
    2

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Freakshow; 05-02-2008, 08:04 PM.
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    Jack Quinn is a good pick, and should be one of the three, but Babe Adams has him beat in Black Ink, Gray Ink, HOF Monitor, posted a .737 ERA in 1921 which led the league, and his 1.29 walks per nine innings is second among pitchers from the 20th century. He should definitely be one of the 3, IMO.

    If Joe Wood had more than a few peak seasons, he'd be a good candidate, but there are too many what ifs surrounding him and talent alone isn't enough for him to make the cut, IMO.

    Konetchy was a good hitter but his numbers are middle of the road, still, he has a leg up on the rest of the non-pitching candidates. My three choices would be Jack Quinn, Babe Adams and Ed Konetchy. With Babe Adams being the number one choice.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
      We need to decide who will get the other three spots on the ballot. There are nine runners-up who are under consideration:

      39% Firpo Marberry
      36% Hippo Vaughn
      36% Babe Adams
      36% Cy Williams
      27% Jack Quinn
      25% Ken Williams
      21% Jake Daubert
      18% Joe Wood
      18% Ed Konetchy
      I voted for Vaughn, Quinn, and ten "winners".
      My personal selections at the moment are Vaughn, Adams, and Quinn.

      I believe the conventional ranking of these nine candidates is close to the inverse of this list by percent support in our two first-round polls. Konetchy, Daubert, and Quinn (probably) or Wood or KWilliams, with Marberry bringing up the rear.

      Participants in this forum and in this Ultimate Search series are more "career-oriented" than I am but less than is convention (as I see it). Probably you should reflect such an intermediate position.

      --
      From the general introduction I know that in mid-stage discussions such as this we will extend the list of 86 first-round "winners" to a list of 100 or about 100. That will complete the first-listed objective of The Ultimate Search for Candidates. What use do you plan to make of the list of 100?

      Do you plan that in each round 2 or round 3 poll the number of candidates we vote for (5, here in 1910s-1920s) is the number who advance to the next round without further discussion?
      Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-06-2008, 03:19 PM. Reason: continue

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I'd choose Firpo Marberry, Cy Williams, & Ken Williams as my top 3 picks.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
          I voted for Vaughn, Quinn, and ten "winners".
          My personal selections at the moment are Vaughn, Adams, and Quinn.

          I believe the conventional ranking of these nine candidates is close to the inverse of this list by percent support in our two first-round polls. Konetchy, Daubert, and Quinn (probably) or Wood or KWilliams, with Marberry bringing up the rear.

          Participants in this forum and in this Ultimate Search series are more "career-oriented" than I am but less than is convention (as I see it). Probably you should reflect such an intermediate position.

          --
          From the general introduction I know that in mid-stage discussions such as this we will extend the list of 86 first-round "winners" to a list of 100 or about 100. That will complete the first-listed objective of The Ultimate Search for Candidates. What use do you plan to make of the list of 100?

          Do you plan that in each round 2 or round 3 poll the number of candidates we vote for (5, here in 1910s-1920s) is the number who advance to the next round without further discussion?
          I'm not firmly tied to my three picks; I mentioned them just to get the discussion rolling. These three are unlikely to advance to Round 3, but I'd like to get them "right" to construct the top 100 HOF candidates list.

          What will I do with the 100 candidate list? I haven't quite decided on a structure, but I'd like to do a project to make inductions to that oft-mentioned but never-defined construct, the Hall of Very Good.

          And the answer to your last question is in the introductory thread: I am planning to have at-large selections from Round 2 added to the Round 3 polls. The present scheme has the 5 winners in the 1910/20 poll combine with the 5 winners from the 1930/40 poll, plus three others. That will make a 13-man poll for the 1910/20/30/40 Round 3 election.
          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

          Comment


          • #6
            So far the consensus is leaning towards Jack Quinn, Babe Adams and Ed Konetchy as the three to include in the poll.

            It would be helpful to gather a few more opinions on this. Or are we all good with those three?
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
              So far the consensus is leaning towards Jack Quinn, Babe Adams and Ed Konetchy as the three to include in the poll.

              It would be helpful to gather a few more opinions on this. Or are we all good with those three?
              I like Cy Williams more than Konetchy, mainly due to the homeruns, and Williams has the black and grey ink. But Adams and Quinn I am ok with.
              "It's good to be young and a Giant." - Larry Doyle

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                So far the consensus is leaning towards Jack Quinn, Babe Adams and Ed Konetchy as the three to include in the poll.

                It would be helpful to gather a few more opinions on this. Or are we all good with those three?

                --Sorry I was waiting for the poll. I like Hippo Vaughn over Quinn. Actually I don't really like any of them too much, but if we are picking three put me down for Vaughn, Adams and Konetchy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                  --Sorry I was waiting for the poll.
                  The poll will be a 15 man ballot for the stars of the teens and twenties, 12 of whom gained automatic inclusion from the Round 1 polls. This preliminary discussion is to decide who should be on that poll -- I wasn't planning a separate poll to decide the three at-large candidates.
                  Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                  Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I failed to get that too.

                    OK, though, in that case:

                    I'm a HUGE Cy Williams booster. He's one of the best kept secrets in baseball history. 4-time HR king, good fielding CF...frankly, if he didn't play half his career in the dead ball era, I think he would have had a career comparable to Duke Snider's.

                    The others...Konetchy and Marberry, I guess, with regrets to Wood, Vaughn, and Quinn.

                    But I'd vote for Cy Williams three times if I could.
                    Last edited by Cougar; 02-10-2008, 04:34 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      When I learned about the project and visited the 1920s poll I expected to vote for Cy Williams (and five pitchers). I was disappointed to see that he was an everyday player only in the early 1920s and I plunked for Wally Schang, one of our election "winners".

                      He was an outstanding player and a regular CF for ten seasons. No doubt Baker Bowl suited his style, or his talents if he adapted his style, and that was a big part of his late development as a player.

                      By the way, does anyone know whether his trade and the Alexander trade were related. It's hard to believe that the Cubs and Phillies gave up Williams and Alexander in the two separate trades we list.

                      You can't go very far wrong or very far right!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cougar View Post
                        I failed to get that too.

                        OK, though, in that case:

                        I'm a HUGE Cy Williams booster. He's one of the best kept secrets in baseball history. 4-time HR king, good fielding CF...frankly, if he didn't play half his career in the dead ball era, I think he would have had a career comparable to Duke Snider's.

                        The others...Konetchy and Marberry, I guess, with regrets to Wood, Vaughn, and Quinn.

                        But I'd vote for Cy Williams three times if I could.
                        It's a bit disappointing at this late date to see anyone touting Cy Williams. How long have we known about park effects? 25 years? And that's all it is for Cy.

                        Both Win Shares and WARP agree that he had one decent year (one year above 21 WS - one year above 6.0 WARP3); even that one was far short of being an MVP-type season.

                        Williams was a great natural athlete. He went straight from Notre Dame, where he took up baseball part-time, to the big leagues. He decided to skip the 1912 Olympics, and signed with the Cubs instead.

                        Despite not being a top-drawer star, he had one of the longest careers among position players of his era due to his athleticism and training habits. However, in his 19-year career he was an everyday player (80% of team games) in only eight years. That's a big strike against him in trying to build his case as a great player.

                        He was a dead-pull LH hitter, perfectly suited for Baker Bowl. Of his 251 career HR, 161 (64%) were hit at home. Unlike some others, he did not take extraordinary advantage of the "cozy confines"; he hit about as well as should be expected given the conditions. IOW, his increased offense at home was about the same level that the average player benefitted.

                        So all that Black Ink and HR crowns are about what one would expect from a good hitter in those conditions. It is not an indication that he was a superior player deserving of serious HOF consideration.
                        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          --If Williams had been able to stay in the lineup more he'd be a very good Hall of Fame candidate. As it is he falls pretty clearly short IMO.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            My picks would be for Adams, Quinn and Kenny Williams. The first 2 are no-brainers...Williams has always felt severely underrated to me. He was one of just a few players to embrace Ruth's style, and added some speed to the package as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Big Ed Konetchy was arguably the best first baseman of the era and I'd personally take him over Frank Chance any day of the week.

                              Joe Quinn and Joe Wood would be my other two picks.

                              I'm not about to give Marberry a pass because he was a prototype reliever. He simply wasn't as valuable as Quinn or Smokey Joe.
                              "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                              "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                              "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                              "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X