Ranking the Hall of Fame Players - Election Three

[DoubleX]

Cobb pulled away in the last day to take the number 2 spot. I've decided to replace him with Rickey Henderson. I caved in and figured that Henderson is so likely to get in next year, we might as well include him on the poll. Otherwise, if this project is successful, by the time he's in we'd likely be past the point where we would have voted for him. This isn't as much a concern with someone like Jim Rice, who also seems likely to get in next year, because we likely won't be ready to vote for Rice anyway by next January.

Eligibility: In order to be eligible, a player must 1) Be in the Hall of Fame or considered to be extremely likely to be elected in the next election (i.e. Rickey Henderson); and 2) Be designated as a "player" by the Hall of Fame.

Voting Criteria: Voting is to be based on a player’s qualifications to be in the Hall of Fame. As such, subjective elements can factor into the evaluation, and this should not simply be an exercise in ranking players based on statistics. Jackie Robinson is probably the best example of this.

Election Format: Elections will last 5 days, with winner takes all. A tie will result in a 2 day runoff. For now the ballot will list 40 players, plus an “Other” option. If voting for “Other” please post and specify the player. Also, feel free to let me know if you feel I should expand/contract future ballots and/or add/subtract certain players from the future ballots.

Results
1) Babe Ruth
2) Ty Cobb

[KCGHOST]

Sticking with the Dutchman.

[ElHalo]

Ok; I think it's time for Jackie Robinson here. Hank Aaron would also be a good selection. I don't think Honus would be nearly as good a selection right now if not for his tobacco card; oddly, I think that the existence of that bumps him up a few notches in this voting.

[philkid3]

Please change my vote to Willie Mays, from Jackie Robinson.

I mistakenly though Mays won the last round.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Willieeeee.

Say hey say hey say hey.

[DoubleX]

Please change my vote to Willie Mays, from Jackie Robinson.

I mistakenly though Mays won the last round.

Done.

As a general comment, with Wagner leading this election right now, I find it hard to believe that after three elections, we might have yet to elect a post-integration player. That just seems wrong to me. Perhaps those of us supporting post-integration players, namely Mays, Aaron, and Robinson, can't agree on which one to support. I definitely think all three fit the Hall of Fame better than Wagner at this point. For example, when the All Century team was selected in 1999, the fans did not even pick Wagner, he had to be added by a committee. I know that's not the most reliable of sources, but how can Wagner be considered the third most qualified player for the Hall of Fame when millions of everyday fans are not familiar enough with him to vote him on the All Century team? There isn't a fan out there who doesn't know about Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Jackie Robinson. These are names that resonate much greater today than Honus Wagner. Yes, part of that is due to the fact that Wagner played so long ago that his name has become more obscured, but that hasn't really affected guys like Ruth, Cobb, and Johnson that much, and while we can and should compensate for the general ignorance of Wagner's career, I think we're overcompensating if we believe he is more deserving of the Hall than all three of these important and extremely memorable post-integration figures.

[jjpm74]

Done.

As a general comment, with Wagner leading this election right now, I find it hard to believe that after three elections, we might have yet to elect a post-integration player. That just seems wrong to me. Perhaps those of us supporting post-integration players, namely Mays, Aaron, and Robinson, can't agree on which one to support. I definitely think all three fit the Hall of Fame better than Wagner at this point. For example, when the All Century team was selected in 1999, the fans did not even pick Wagner, he had to be added by a committee. I know that's not the most reliable of sources, but how can Wagner be considered the third most qualified player for the Hall of Fame when millions of everyday fans are not familiar enough with him to vote him on the All Century team? There isn't a fan out there who doesn't know about Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Jackie Robinson. These are names that resonate much greater today than Honus Wagner. Yes, part of that is due to the fact that Wagner played so long ago that his name has become more obscured, but that hasn't really affected guys like Ruth, Cobb, and Johnson that much, and while we can and should compensate for the general ignorance of Wagner's career, I think we're overcompensating if we believe he is more deserving of the Hall than all three of these important and extremely memorable post-integration figures.

I voted for Honus Wagner because prior to Babe Ruth, there was no bigger star in baseball. Period. By your line of reasoning, we should be taking players like Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn and George Brett over your three post integration picks since they are more fresh on the minds of fans and therefore more "famous."

Everyone is going to have their own top five and all time ranking of players. Mine is as follows:

Babe Ruth
Honus Wagner
Josh Gibson
Ty Cobb
Willie Mays

[Captain Cold Nose]

I voted for Honus Wagner because prior to Babe Ruth, there was no bigger star in baseball. Period. By your line of reasoning, we should be taking players like Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn and George Brett since they are more fresh on the minds of fans and therefore more "famous."

Does Cobb not count? His peak years were pre-Yankee Ruth. He did finish first in the very first HOF ballot. Wagner is certainly up there, but it could be argued about Matthewson and even Cy "split vote" Young.

If fame were that important, you'd think Ripken and Nolan Ryan would be coming up rather quickly, wouldn't you? I'm sure they'll get their votes, too.

[Freakshow]

I have Mays over Wagner mainly for these reasons.

1) As was said, it was pre-integration.

2) It was pre farm system. There was no system of scouting and funneling the best players to the pros, then developing them to a major league standard.

3) The NL was the weaker league in Wagner's prime. It took the NL more than a decade after the 1903 peace accord to catch up in quality after the AL raids.

All of this made it much easier for Honus to dominate the competition, inflating his stats somewhat.

[jalbright]

Done.

As a general comment, with Wagner leading this election right now, I find it hard to believe that after three elections, we might have yet to elect a post-integration player. That just seems wrong to me. Perhaps those of us supporting post-integration players, namely Mays, Aaron, and Robinson, can't agree on which one to support. I definitely think all three fit the Hall of Fame better than Wagner at this point. For example, when the All Century team was selected in 1999, the fans did not even pick Wagner, he had to be added by a committee. I know that's not the most reliable of sources, but how can Wagner be considered the third most qualified player for the Hall of Fame when millions of everyday fans are not familiar enough with him to vote him on the All Century team? There isn't a fan out there who doesn't know about Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, and Jackie Robinson. These are names that resonate much greater today than Honus Wagner. Yes, part of that is due to the fact that Wagner played so long ago that his name has become more obscured, but that hasn't really affected guys like Ruth, Cobb, and Johnson that much, and while we can and should compensate for the general ignorance of Wagner's career, I think we're overcompensating if we believe he is more deserving of the Hall than all three of these important and extremely memorable post-integration figures.

Wagner had far more defensive value due to his role as a shortstop than Mays, Aaron and F. Robinson. There's nothing that means that the best 3-4 players couldn't have played before 1945. I'm a great supporter of integrated ball and Negro Leaguers, but I don't have the aforementioned three in my top five, but I have Aaron, Mays, Charleston and Paige in my top 20. I'll add T. Williams and Musial in the top 20--so at least 20% of players are post-integration. Given that we've really got 60 years of integrated ball out of 140+ years total combined with the fact that there are some who are not yet eligible for the HOF yet, I don't think that's out of line. We don't need quotas.

[MadHatter]

I'm still going with the "Say Hey Kid" on this one.

[DoubleX]

Wagner had far more defensive value due to his role as a shortstop than Mays, Aaron and F. Robinson. There's nothing that means that the best 3-4 players couldn't have played before 1945. I'm a great supporter of integrated ball and Negro Leaguers, but I don't have the aforementioned three in my top five, but I have Aaron, Mays, Charleston and Paige in my top 20. I'll add T. Williams and Musial in the top 20--so at least 20% of players are post-integration. Given that we've really got 60 years of integrated ball out of 140+ years total combined with the fact that there are some who are not yet eligible for the HOF yet, I don't think that's out of line. We don't need quotas.

You bring up defensive value, this is not about ranking players solely based on performance and statistics. There is a more transcendent aspect to the Hall of Fame, it celebrates a lot more than just how a player performs, but also what that player means to the game, how that player is remembered. In that regard, I belive Robinson (Jackie not Frank), Mays, and Aaron, all arguably sit on slightly higher levels. Wagner, a truly great player and in my top 5 all time, is just not a name that resonates like Mays, Aaron, and Robinson, IMO.

Moreover, it's my personal belief that the game in the pre-integration is tainted as we don't have a fully accurate picture of the game at that time. Where might Josh Gibson or Oscar Charleston rank if they had their shot? What my a role call of the stars of the game have been if the league was integrated? Imagine what a role call of the best players in the 50s and 60s would look like without integration, witout Mays, Aaron, Robinson, Clemente, McCovey, Gibson, Banks, and so on - we'd have a very different perception of the game's best from that era, and that's what we're left with in the pre-integration era. To celebrate first and foremost players only from that time, while delaying until later the great post-integration names in the game, just doesn't seem right to me.

Everyone knows who Willie Mays, Jackie Robinson, and Hank Aaron are, a lot of people don't know Honus Wagner. Now of course, we can make adjustments for the general ignorance about Wagner's career, but the gap in familiarity between Wagner and a guy like Mays, is huge, and that's why Mays, IMO, is slighlty more suited for the Hall. Now you might argue something like, "but Wagner played so long ago that it's no surprise that more recent names are more memorable," well that doesn't seem to have hurt Ruth and Cobb.

[jalbright]

Double X:

We can all vote for the Hall as we see fit. I don't happen to fully agree with your approach, nor you with mine. That's fine. However, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with supporting Wagner for #3 over Aaron, Mays, or Frank or Jackie Robinson. The Negro Leaguers are likely to be underestimated here due to the difficulties with the data plus at least some cases of generalized ignorance on the subject. We will not resolve all those problems here today nor in the foreseeable future, unfortunately. But that doesn't require skewing my thoughts on the subject to try to counterbalance those factors. To me, that's politicking, and I'm getting plenty of that in 2008 without doing my own.

[jjpm74]

Does Cobb not count? His peak years were pre-Yankee Ruth. He did finish first in the very first HOF ballot. Wagner is certainly up there, but it could be argued about Matthewson and even Cy "split vote" Young.

If fame were that important, you'd think Ripken and Nolan Ryan would be coming up rather quickly, wouldn't you? I'm sure they'll get their votes, too.

Both Cobb and Wagner were supertars in their day. The reason I take Wagner ahead of Cobb is because Wagner was a SS whereas Cobb as an outfielder, even though both were great defensively and Wagner was a better role model for kids in his day. Cobb had a reputation for being a real jerk both on and off the field.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Both Cobb and Wagner were supertars in their day. The reason I take Wagner ahead of Cobb is because Wagner was a SS whereas Cobb as an outfielder, even though both were great defensively and Wagner was a better role model for kids in his day. Cobb had a reputation for being a real jerk both on and off the field.

While I won't say you've convinced me in regards to placement, your rationale is certainly sound. Thanks for that.