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No Respect For Thirdbase

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  • No Respect For Thirdbase

    No position has as few players in the Hall of Fame as thirdbase. Even with as few as there are, they haven't really got the right guys. The best player not in the Hall is a thirdbaseman. Why do you think so few 3B are in and who do you think should be. Three of my top 10 thirdbasemen are eligible, but not in. It would be four of ten if you count Molitor as a DH (which he was) and not a thirdbaseman. No other position has more than one of my top ten eligible but not in and none of my top 15 eligible shortstops are not in. My list as follows:
    1. Mike Schmidt - in
    2. George Brett - in
    3. Eddie Mathews - in
    4. Wade Boggs - not eligible, but surely will be in
    5. Ron Santo - the best player not in
    6. Frank Baker - in
    7. Brooks Robinson - in
    8. Ken Boyer - not in , but should be
    9. Graig Nettles - not in, but would have my vote
    10. Paul Molitor - coming soon to a Hall near you
    11. Stan Hack - not in, but should have been a long time ago
    12. Pie Traynor - in
    13. Al Rosen - not in and career probably was too short
    14. Sal Bando - not in and not likely to be
    15. Ron Cey - not in
    16. Darrel Evans - not in
    17. Jimmy Collins - in and maybe underrated by me
    18. Bob Elliott - not in
    19. Buddy Bell - not in
    20. Chipper Jones - no longer at third,but building his case

    Players not in my top 20 but in the Hall: George Kell and Freddy Lindstrom.
    Players not in my top 20, but better than Kell or Lindstrom: Tommy Leach, Henie Groh, Harlond Clift, Lave Cross and Gary Gaetti. Player I wouldn't endorse but am surprised some batting average boosters haven't: Bill Madlock
    There are also two Negro League 3B's in the Hall, Judy Johnson and Ray Dandrige, and possibly other Negro Leaguers better than some guys I've mentioned. I leave them (and most 19th century guys) off my lists because I haven't studied them enough to rate them with any accuracy.
    Last edited by leecemark; 05-07-2004, 07:29 PM.

  • #2
    Molitor is in but really they put him in as a DH. I agree with you on Chipper. He has been quietly amassing a HOF career but ,like Molitor ,I don't think they'll treat him as a 3baseman.

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    • #3
      Top 10 eligible 3b not enshrined:

      1. Ron Santo
      2. Stan Hack
      3. Ken Boyer
      4. Graig Nettles
      5. Darrell Evans

      (These top 5 should go in today.)

      6. Buddy Bell
      7. Lave Cross
      8. Al Rosen
      9. Bob Elliott
      10. Heinie Groh

      Sal Bando could mix in this bottom half somewhere, as could Cey and Leach, I guess.

      Comment


      • #4
        I tend to agree with the concensus - Boyer, Evans, Hack, Nettles and Santo should all be in a.s.a.p.

        There are a number of other, very interesting cases among third basemen to which I am sympathetic, but I'm of a mind to focus on the five guys named above first: they are pretty obviously deserving in my book. It will be difficult enough to find support for Darrell Evans or Stan Hack; it would be foolish to go looking for support for Lave Cross, Bob Elliott or Tommy Leach until some of these guys are elected first.
        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Cougar
          Top 10 eligible 3b not enshrined:

          1. Ron Santo
          2. Stan Hack
          3. Ken Boyer
          4. Graig Nettles
          5. Darrell Evans

          (These top 5 should go in today.)

          6. Buddy Bell
          7. Lave Cross
          8. Al Rosen
          9. Bob Elliott
          10. Heinie Groh

          Sal Bando could mix in this bottom half somewhere, as could Cey and Leach, I guess.
          I would put Al Rosen in. Rosen is the Dizzy Dean of position players; he had a short career, but he had a peak like no other; his PEAK value may well have exceeded Schmidt's. If Dizzy Dean got in the HOF with the short career he had, Rosen deserves more serious consideration than he's gotten to date.
          "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

          NL President Ford Frick, 1947

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by leecemark
            No position has as few players in the Hall of Fame as thirdbase. Even with as few as there are, they haven't really got the right guys. The best player not in the Hall is a thirdbaseman. Why do you think so few 3B are in and who do you think should be. Three of my top 10 thirdbasemen are eligible, but not in. It would be four of ten if you count Molitor as a DH (which he was) and not a thirdbaseman. No other position has more than one of my top ten eligible but not in and none of my top 15 eligible shortstops are not in. My list as follows:
            1. Mike Schmidt - in
            2. George Brett - in
            3. Eddie Mathews - in
            4. Wade Boggs - not eligible, but surely will be in
            5. Ron Santo - the best player not in
            6. Frank Baker - in
            7. Brooks Robinson - in
            8. Ken Boyer - not in , but should be
            9. Graig Nettles - not in, but would have my vote
            10. Paul Molitor - coming soon to a Hall near you
            11. Stan Hack - not in, but should have been a long time ago
            12. Pie Traynor - in
            13. Al Rosen - not in and career probably was too short
            14. Sal Bando - not in and not likely to be
            15. Ron Cey - not in
            16. Darrel Evans - not in
            17. Jimmy Collins - in and maybe underrated by me
            18. Bob Elliott - not in
            19. Buddy Bell - not in
            20. Chipper Jones - no longer at third,but building his case
            Rosen better than Evans?
            Traynor better than Jones?
            Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
            Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

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            • #7
              Originally posted by RuthMayBond
              Rosen better than Evans?
              Traynor better than Jones?
              Rosen is better than Evans on peak value.

              Traynor is better than Jones on career value, to date, but that may change.
              "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

              NL President Ford Frick, 1947

              Comment


              • #8
                --Rosen was better than Evans, although Evans lasted enough longer that he perhaps should rank ahead. Certainly he was more valuable, although I think overrated by sabermetrics. As for Traynor and Jones, this was posted 2 years ago. Pie has gone down and Chipper up in my estimation since then and Jones is ahead.
                --Actually this thread was revived 2 years to the day from its inception. Quite the concidence.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
                  Rosen is better than Evans on peak value.
                  And John Paciorek is better than Rosen on peak

                  <Traynor is better than Jones on career value, to date>

                  Chipper is a little behind in PA & glove, but
                  141 OPS+ to 107?
                  Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                  Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    3Bmen not in who should be:
                    1.Ron Santo-no explanation necessary. Who knows why he hasn't gotten in. Only player outside who rivals him is Dick Allen.
                    2.Sal Bando-been over him many times, I have no idea why he doens't get more support
                    3.Darrell Evans-Very good player for a really long time, very good hitter and fielder. Similar to Nettles but greater bat, less glove
                    4.Graig Nettles-On the fence on him, great glove a pretty good bat. BA was so low though that his OBP isn't high even though he walked a lot.
                    5.Heinie Groh-Monster peak, best player in NL between Wagner and Hornsby.

                    Ken Boyer I'm shaky on. I'm not so sure if he's a HOFer. I could be convinced though.
                    Last edited by 538280; 05-08-2006, 04:16 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by leecemark
                      No position has as few players in the Hall of Fame as thirdbase. Even with as few as there are, they haven't really got the right guys. The best player not in the Hall is a thirdbaseman.
                      I had no idea Sherry Magee was a third baseman.

                      In all seriousness, I do believe that there are three eligible 3Bmen who should be in (Santo, Hack, and, thanks to Chris, Groh), and that there are some questionable guys in already. However, 3B in my view is BY FAR the weakest position. There just haven't been that many guys who've been great players and also happened to play 3rd. It happens; outside of Griffey, there's been a thinness on great CF's for decades, and it just so happens that the thinness on 3Bmen has lasted a hundred and fifty years.
                      "Simply put, the passion, interest and tradition surrounding baseball in New York is unmatched."

                      Sean McAdam, ESPN.com

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                      • #12
                        --Hall of Fame quality thirdbasemen were certainly in short supply for the first 80 or so years of MLB. For much of that time a thirdbaseman was simply a team's second best SS. Since the 50s I'd say it has produced as many great players as any other position though. I guess the lower number of 3Bs is largely a reflection of the much higher standards being applied to modern players. Many second tier stars of the pre-WWII/integration period reside in Cooperstown. Very few non-superstars of the modern era have made it.

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                        • #13
                          I have no problem with Santo, Hack and maybe Evans. To me the rest of the guys are short of the mark for varying reasons.
                          Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                          • #14
                            Santo should have been elected in 1979.

                            He's way over due.
                            "I think about baseball when I wake up in the morning. I think about it all day and I dream about it at night. The only time I don't think about it is when I'm playing it."
                            Carl Yastrzemski

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                            • #15
                              While there are only 4 guys I'd consider "should-bes" (Santo, Boyer, Bando and John Beckwith), I would think a decent case could be made for any of these: Harlond Clift, Darrell Evans, Billy Nash, Hack, Nettles and Groh. Billy Nash is an interesting player....while not a great hitter, he was great at the things he was supposed to be in his era....great glove and fast as hell...yet I've never seen him mentioned here. Third base more than any other position (possibly along with 2B) has seen its focus shift many times. Players that were everything you could ask for when they played don't necessarily look that good these days.

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