Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Gary Carter

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by nerfan View Post
    How many catchers are there with 2000 hits?
    Depending on how you want to classify some "catchers":

    2495 Ivan Rodriguez
    2472 Ted Simmons
    2356 Carlton Fisk
    2342 Joe Torre
    2326 B.J. Surhoff
    2150 Yogi Berra
    2127 Mike Piazza
    2099 Brian Downing
    2092 Gary Carter
    2066 Deacon White
    2048 Johnny Bench

    Included here are all players with 2,000+ hits who spent at least 25% of their career games playing catcher.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chickazoola
    replied
    Originally posted by philkid3 View Post
    Rodriguez and Piazza
    Ted Simmons too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Los Bravos
    replied
    Simmons had 2472.
    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    Bench is generally credited as being a better defensive catcher, and this is buttressed by Bench's nine (9) consecutive Gold Gloves, compared to Carter's three (3) consecutive Gold Gloves (both represent the career totals for each). Carter, however, had far more assists and a much better range factor vs. league. The guys who beat out Carter for the Gold Glove in 1983-86 were Tony Pena and Jody Davis, ridiculous choices, IMO. The guy who beat Carter out in 1978-79 was Bob Boone, who was a tremendous defensive catcher, but Carter had both a better fielding percentage and a better assist rate. A case can be made that Gary Carter was the best defensive catcher of all time.
    A lower assist rate sometimes measures the fact that people have simply stopped running on you, realizing the futility of the exercise.

    Even apart from that, you can't measure Bench like that. You have to look at where the position was before his arrival and how he changed it through his example, how he revolutionized the way the position is played. That's not easily measured, statistically.
    Last edited by Los Bravos; 11-23-2007, 06:44 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • nerfan
    replied
    Originally posted by philkid3 View Post
    Rodriguez and Piazza
    I was thinking retired.

    Leave a comment:


  • philkid3
    replied
    Originally posted by nerfan View Post
    How many catchers are there with 2000 hits?

    Berra
    Bench
    Fisk

    And Carter. That's it, I think.
    Rodriguez and Piazza

    Leave a comment:


  • nerfan
    replied
    Gary Carter

    How many catchers are there with 2000 hits?

    Berra
    Bench
    Fisk

    And Carter. That's it, I think.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fuzzy Bear
    replied
    Originally posted by OleMissCub View Post
    Am I missing something here, because I was just looking over his BR page and...his career just doesn't strike me as that of a HOFer. In 19 seasons he barely racked up 2000 hits?
    He racked up more career hits than Johnny Bench.

    Of course, Bench is the better player. Neither of these guys, however, are in the HOF for their career hit totals.

    Carter caught around 300 more games than Bench. Bench extended his career toward the end by playing 3B (badly) and 1B (when he could steal time there), but was done at 35. Carter, however, stayed at catcher longer; if he had been moved to 1B after 1987, he MIGHT have hit more HRs, approaching Bench (Carter hit 325, Bench 389).

    Bench is generally credited as being a better defensive catcher, and this is buttressed by Bench's nine (9) consecutive Gold Gloves, compared to Carter's three (3) consecutive Gold Gloves (both represent the career totals for each). Carter, however, had far more assists and a much better range factor vs. league. The guys who beat out Carter for the Gold Glove in 1983-86 were Tony Pena and Jody Davis, ridiculous choices, IMO. The guy who beat Carter out in 1978-79 was Bob Boone, who was a tremendous defensive catcher, but Carter had both a better fielding percentage and a better assist rate. A case can be made that Gary Carter was the best defensive catcher of all time.
    Last edited by Fuzzy Bear; 11-23-2007, 04:39 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Chadwick
    replied
    I've had Carter in my top five since the end of his career. How anyone thinks Fisk is the better catcher is beyond me. Even throwing Josh Gibson in there, I'll still take Carter in the top five with no apologies.

    Anyone in the top 10 at their position all-time deserves election to the Hall of Fame.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Hoban
    replied
    Originally posted by dgarza View Post
    I'm confused. In previous posts, a score of 280 was your HOF cutoff. With Carter having a score of 282, that puts him just barely over the HOF line. That doesn't seem like "no brainer" territory.

    It also places many HOF catchers well outside of your HOF territory.
    You are correct in saying that a score of 280 is needed in the NEWS HOF Gauge to have OBVIOUS HOF numbers for a position palyer. Only 84 position players have done that in the 20th century and only four are catchers.

    This does not mean that other catchers like Fisk, Cochrane or Dickey do not belong in the Hall. It simply means that their numbers are not as convincing as Berra, Bench, Piazza and Carter. These four have OBVIOUS HOF numbers.

    Author of BASEBALL'S BEST: The TRUE Hall of Famers

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by OleMissCub View Post
    Am I missing something here, because I was just looking over his BR page and...his career just doesn't strike me as that of a HOFer.
    That's the thing about Carter. I never saw him as a "no-brainer" when he was active. He wasn't a phenom, he didn't have flashy numbers, low BA. But once you get beyond most of the superficial numbers, he actually does quite well. I have him behind Mike Piazza, Yogi Berra, Johnny Bench, Bill Dickey, Mickey Cochrane, Ivan Rodriguez, Ernie Lombardi, Ted Simmons, & Gabby Hartnett. But that's it. That puts him in my Top 10.

    I guess I could complicate things if I included King Kelly or maybe even Cal McVey.

    Leave a comment:


  • dgarza
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Hoban View Post
    Gary Carter is a no-brainer for the Hall. According to the NEWS HOF Gauge, here are the top catchers for the 20th century.

    1. Yogi Berra 301
    2, Johnny Bench 297
    3. Mike Piazza 286
    4. Gary Carter 282
    5. Carlton Fisk 272
    6. Joe Torre 262
    7. Ted Simmons 259
    8. Mickey Cochrane 256
    9. Bill Dickey 255
    10. Gabby Hartnett 253
    11. Ivan Rodriguez 246
    12. Bill Freehan 235
    13. Gene Tenace 212
    14. Lance Parrish 208
    15. Roy Campanella 207
    16. Thurman Munson 205
    17. Roger Bresnahan 201
    I'm confused. In previous posts, a score of 280 was your HOF cutoff. With Carter having a score of 282, that puts him just barely over the HOF line. That doesn't seem like "no brainer" territory.

    It also places many HOF catchers well outside of your HOF territory.
    Last edited by dgarza; 11-22-2007, 07:29 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fuzzy Bear
    replied
    I can't believe that people don't think Carter is a HOFer?

    The only question is "Where does he rank?"

    Few catchers were the very best catcher in baseball for as long as Carter was. Carter was CLEARLY the best catcher in baseball from 1979-86, and sometimes, it wasn't close.

    Eight years is a long time to be the very best at one's position in all of the major leagues.

    Leave a comment:


  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by OleMissCub View Post
    Am I missing something here, because I was just looking over his BR page and...his career just doesn't strike me as that of a HOFer. In 19 seasons he barely racked up 2000 hits?
    Carter is rated pretty consistently as one of the 10 best defensive catchers of all time, including Bill Burgess' ranking. He was a better fielder that Bob Boone, and a 115 OPS+.

    Catchers have a hard time scoring high on WARP and Win Shares systems because even though they get a positional edge, they just do not play 2400 games. I think that catchers should be given a slight longevity bonus, about 10% because they have to do much more on their days off than other players, and really have to take at least a handful of games off a year.

    When Carter retired, I did not see him as a hall of famer at all. I thought that Murphy and Dawson were better. Now its pretty clearly the opposite. Carter is probably a top 50 player. Other guys who I didn't see as HOFers but who pretty clearly are among the top 100 of all time are Alan Trammell, Tim Raines (maybe in the mid 30s), Dick Allen, Ron Santo,

    These guys get totally overlooked unless you look at relative stats.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Hoban
    replied
    Gary Carter is a no-brainer for the Hall. According to the NEWS HOF Gauge, here are the top catchers for the 20th century.

    1. Yogi Berra 301
    2, Johnny Bench 297
    3. Mike Piazza 286
    4. Gary Carter 282
    5. Carlton Fisk 272
    6. Joe Torre 262
    7. Ted Simmons 259
    8. Mickey Cochrane 256
    9. Bill Dickey 255
    10. Gabby Hartnett 253
    11. Ivan Rodriguez 246
    12. Bill Freehan 235
    13. Gene Tenace 212
    14. Lance Parrish 208
    15. Roy Campanella 207
    16. Thurman Munson 205
    17. Roger Bresnahan 201

    Of course, Roy Campanella only played for ten seasons and that hurts him here. And, as someone who saw him play often, he was a truly great ballplayer.

    Author of BASEBALL' BEST: The TRUE Hall of Famers

    Leave a comment:


  • jalbright
    replied
    we've just merged two threads.

    Leave a comment:

Ad Widget

Collapse
Working...
X