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The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 2 – 1930’s/40’s

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  • The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 2 – 1930’s/40’s

    Welcome to The Ultimate Quest for Candidates – Round 2. This thread will have the second poll in the second round, combining the leading players from the polls for the 1930’s and the 1940’s. Refer to the earlier threads for discussion and links to biographies.

    There will be 15 players on the ballot. You will be asked to vote for 5 (FIVE) players. These 12 players automatically advanced to this round by their top finishes in the Round 1 polls:

    83% Wes Ferrell
    83% Stan Hack
    79% Joe Gordon
    79% Wally Berger
    72% Vern Stephens
    65% Tommy Bridges
    65% Bob Johnson
    59% Bucky Walters
    52% Bob Elliott
    45% Charlie Keller
    45% Mickey Vernon
    39% Buddy Myer

    We need to decide who will get the other three spots on the ballot. There are nine runners-up who are under consideration:

    38% Dom DiMaggio
    36% Dick Bartell
    36% Lefty O'Doul
    31% Johnny Pesky
    31% Cecil Travis
    31% Lon Warneke
    27% Babe Herman
    24% Dolph Camilli
    24% Johnny Sain

    My personal picks are probably Pesky, Bartell and O’Doul with his extra contributions. Your input on this issue is strongly requested as we look to develop a consensus.

    Below are the players we voted as the top 21 HOF candidates whose careers centered in the 1930’s and 1940’s.
    Pos	BJ	Player	Name	 Win Shares      WARP3	
    8	#13	Wally	Berger	(241: 36-33-31)	(78.6: 11.7-11.2-10.4)	
    1	#77	Tommy	Bridges	(241: 26-22-20)	(88.1: 9.2-7.6-7.5)	
    5	#18	Bob	Elliott	(280: 29-27-27)	(96.7: 12.1-9.6-9.3)	
    1	#40	Wes	Ferrell	(233: 35-32-28)	(83.0: 13.6-11.1-10.4)	
    4	#16	Joe	Gordon	(286: 30-26-26)	(102.5: 11.7-10.5-10.2)	
    5	 #9	Stan	Hack	(309: 33-30-30)	(105.0: 10.7-10.6-10.3)	
    7	#31	Bob	Johnson	(280: 29-28-25)	(92.3: 9.6-9.4-8.5)	
    7	#17	Charlie	Keller	(260: 34-33-32)	(82.6: 11.5-10.3-10.0)	
    4	#24	Buddy	Myer	(258: 33-24-23)	(76.4: 10.4-10.0-6.3)	
    6	#22	Vern	Stephens(257: 32-31-25)	(82.9: 9.6-9.5-8.8)	
    3	#23	Mickey	Vernon	(335: 33-29-24)	(88.8: 9.5-9.2-7.9)	
    1	#69	Bucky	Walters	(252: 38-32-29)	(88.3: 13.3-9.4-8.8)	
    6	#37	Dick	Bartell	(266: 28-24-21)	(113.3: 10.8-10.4-9.8)	x
    3	#29	Dolph	Camilli	(222: 29-28-27)	(74.8: 10.7-9.9-9.4)	x
    8	#24	Dom     DiMaggio(291: 27-26-26)	(96.1: 9.6-9.1-8.9)	x
    9	#50	Babe	Herman	(232: 32-26-26)	(64.8: 11.0-8.5-6.9)	x
    7	#52	Lefty	O'Doul	(144: 33-31-22)	(43.4: 11.5-11.0-6.4)	x
    6	#20	Johnny	Pesky	(264: 34-27-27)	(83.3: 11.5-10.5-9.3)	x
    1	---	Johnny	Sain	(200: 28-26-24)	(75.4: 12.0-10.7-9.0)	x
    6	#29	Cecil	Travis	(244: 34-22-22)	(91.1: 12.3-8.6-8.5)	x
    1	#44	Lon	Warneke	(220: 31-29-26)	(71.9: 10.4-9.4-8.5)	x
    Pos – primary position(s)
    BJ – rank at his position in the New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (2001)
    Win Shares – shown are career total and best 3 years
    WARP3 – from Baseball Prospectus; shown are career total and best 3 years
    Other – O’Doul was instrumental in the development of baseball in Japan. He is still an icon in San Francisco, where he played and managed for many years. - Sain is probably the most respected pitching coach of his era.

    Some other things to be aware of:
    1) Bill James’ rankings emphasize players’ peak years; this results in long steady careers being rated lower than what may seem right.
    2) Win shares during WW2 play are discounted: 3% for 1942, 6% for 1943, 9% for 1944, and 12% for 1945. YMMV. Camilli, Johnson, Hack, Stephens, and Walters lost both career and peak WS; Elliott has a small career deduction. Players are also conservatively credited for missed play due to military service. Bartell, Bridges, DiMaggio, Gordon, Keller, Pesky, Sain, Travis, and Vernon have additional WARP and WS for time lost 1942-45.

    That leaves 15 players that dropped out of consideration after Round 1: Ben Chapman, Harlond Clift, Paul Derringer, Lonny Frey, Augie Galan, Mel Harder, Tommy Henrich, Joe Kuhel, Dutch Leonard, Red Lucas, Bobo Newsom, Charlier Root, Hal Trosky, Dizzy Trout and Virgil Trucks. Each of these candidates drew less than 19% support.
    Wally Berger
    Tommy Bridges
    Bob Elliott
    Wes Ferrell
    Joe Gordon
    Stan Hack
    Bob Johnson
    Charlie Keller
    Buddy Myer
    Lefty O'Doul
    Johnny Pesky
    Vern Stephens
    Mickey Vernon
    Bucky Walters
    Lon Warneke

    The poll is expired.

    Last edited by Freakshow; 02-22-2008, 11:16 AM. Reason: update WARP3
    Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

    Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

  • #2
    toil and trouble on the bubble

    Sain and O'Doul have the big baseball "kickers". Sain has earned the title Coach. O'Doul has Japan and San Francisco. Indeed, he is a member of the hall of fame in Japan --and in the BBFever HOF.

    Outside the Hall of Merit and BBFever incubators, only seven of these players come up in Hall of Fame conversation, as far as I know: Ferrell, Gordon, Hack, Johnson, and Stephens from the combined ballot plus DiMaggio and O'Doul on the bubble.
    (Am I right that Pesky is popular only in Red Sox Nation? Or do I underestimate the powers of the dear departed Ted Williams and David Halberstam?)

    Bartell is the strongest traditional Hall of Fame candidate on the bubble if not among all these players. I think it must be Hack or Bartell among all, not Vernon because the preceding generation firmly established extra batting prowess as a firm requirement at 1B. For Hack and Bartell, at least, I can only look at the list of roughly contemporary infielders they did elect and wonder why not him too?

    Before age 27 Camilli played only his age-26 September in the majors. He was from San Francisco. Was he another star controlled by the PCL?

    The salient HOF member for comparison with Herman may be Chuck Klein. Perhaps everyone puts Klein in the bottom half and some consider him a bad selection. Is Herman close enough to Klein that he belongs on the agenda?

    That is more than I can say in favor of Cecil Travis as a candidate.

    Bill James likes Warneke. The Hall is short of pitching from the 1930s. That isn't a lot in his favor but it's all I have.
    (Satchel Paige worked a lot of games. He, Willie Foster, and Hilton Smith were in their late twenties to mid-thirties. Leon Day was there at the end of the decade.)


    • #3
      For the other three spots on the ballot, I'd favor Pesky and O'Doul. The 40's are such a mess because of WW II, and it impacts many of the careers here. It becomes difficult to sort out.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.


      • #4
        Johnny Pesky and Babe Herman are two I'd throw my support out there for. For a third, I'm not really sure and am evenly split.


        • #5
          O'Doul, Pesky and Warneke for me....although O'Doul is the only one whom I'd give any real consideration to.


          • #6
            --O'Doul has an interesting overall package. It is pretty unconventional though. He is not close as a player - or at least a MLB player. His PCL career is much more interesting and sinificant than his NL career. His helping to bring the game to Japan helps. I don't know if I actually support him or not, but he is my first choice for the ballot add ons.
            --Johnny Sain would be another unconventional choice. Again his MLB career is clearly short of the mark. In his case his coaching career has more merit than his playing one. As far as I know he would be the first person to make mostly for coaching. Still his case his interesting in comparsion to the rest, so call him my #2.
            --Lon Warneke was only this much behind Dizy Dean as a pitcher. He is this much behind him in terms of fame. I guess one fo my three should be based strictly on what they actually accomplished on a major league diamond so make him number 3.


            • #7
              oh, i voted for Bartell, Camilli, and Sain but my current thoughts for the ballot may be represented, in order,
              O'Doul, Bartell
              Sain, DiMaggio, Pesky
              Warneke, Herman
              where a "carriage return, line feed" is bigger than a comma.


              • #8
                O'Doul and Warneke certainly get two of my three spots for the bubble guys. The other spot could go to Bartell, Pesky, Herman, or Sain without me caring too much.


                • #9
                  For the runners up, I like Camilli & Herman, with O'Doul or Warneke bringing up the rear.


                  • #10
                    O'Doul, Pesky and Warneke
                    "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                    "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                    "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                    "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe


                    • #11
                      So there isn't any support for Cecil Travis at this stage.
                      Other than that, we're all helping make it more fun for you, Mr. Commissioner.


                      • #12
                        Travis would be my fourth pick, were we to have one.
                        "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                        "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                        "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                        "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe


                        • #13
                          I'll give people one more day to chime in on who should make the ballot and post the poll Tuesday night.
                          Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

                          Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.


                          • #14
                            There are four i really like: O'Doul, Dom D, Travis, and Pesky.

                            It's hard to choose between Pesky and Travis -- both of their careers were so terribly truncated by WWII. (As was Dom D's.)

                            I'll throw in with Pesky using lifetime service as a tiebreaker...Pesky's been involved in the Red Sox organization for something like 60 years now.

                            Dom Dimaggio

                            Hon mention: Travis.


                            • #15
                              O'Doul, Warneke and Dom
                              "It's good to be young and a Giant." - Larry Doyle


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