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  • Negro League HOF voting this weekend!!!

    Shocked that no one else mentioned this

    So let's have our own discussion


    So far these Negro League players are in the HOF

    Josh Gibson
    Cool Papa Bell
    Oscar Charleston
    Ray Dandridge
    Leon Day
    Martin Dihigo
    Bill Foster
    Judy Johnson
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Joe Rogan
    Hilton Smith
    Turkey Stearnes
    Willie Wells
    Joe Williams

    Rube Foster-Pioneer

    Now these seems to be a little more then it should but 1 guy I cannot believe is not in

    Buck O'Neil -Manager

    This man not only brought Negro Leagueres into the HOF...but he managed during the opening of segregation, bringing young men into the big leagues from the Negro Leagues

    I think he should be the sole selection this year

    What others do you think belong?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Imapotato
    Shocked that no one else mentioned this

    So let's have our own discussion


    So far these Negro League players are in the HOF

    Josh Gibson
    Cool Papa Bell
    Oscar Charleston
    Ray Dandridge
    Leon Day
    Martin Dihigo
    Bill Foster
    Judy Johnson
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Joe Rogan
    Hilton Smith
    Turkey Stearnes
    Willie Wells
    Joe Williams

    Rube Foster-Pioneer

    Now these seems to be a little more then it should but 1 guy I cannot believe is not in

    Buck O'Neil -Manager

    This man not only brought Negro Leagueres into the HOF...but he managed during the opening of segregation, bringing young men into the big leagues from the Negro Leagues

    I think he should be the sole selection this year

    What others do you think belong?
    Yep.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/black...ory?id=2339983

    I find it utterly amazing that the data largely existed for that research. Its just that nobody bothered to compile it.

    I hesitate to say this, but it is often said that baseball serves as a mirror for society at large. If so, and this amazing history could have been told ... and nobody bothered ...

    Comment


    • #3
      Well it's not that no one bothered

      It's just with technology and things more readily accessible via the internet...many could work on it in a quick pace

      Wherein 10 years ago...one would have to research extensively in libraries and archives

      I heard one black reporter on ESPN say the same thing as you have and I wondered out loud

      "Why didn't you do it"

      and I am sure he wouldn't have an answer

      Comment


      • #4
        people don't bother because they have bills to pay and families to run - there is absolutely no financial benefits here only costs - research is arduous and very time consuming - it also helps to have an organizing and funding force to help push a project - i bet much of this info has been looked at before but has never been brought together - it's like a railroad system - the hub might be in the east and there might be stations all over the country but if there is no track linking all the stations, there is no movement

        you see it with sports talk all the time - most are happy just to spout all their knowledge loudly and argue - few actually do the research to build that knowledgable foundation (and i'm talking about first-source research)
        Last edited by Brian McKenna; 02-24-2006, 04:05 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Imapotato
          Shocked that no one else mentioned this

          So let's have our own discussion


          So far these Negro League players are in the HOF

          Josh Gibson
          Cool Papa Bell
          Oscar Charleston
          Ray Dandridge
          Leon Day
          Martin Dihigo
          Bill Foster
          Judy Johnson
          Buck Leonard
          Pop Lloyd
          Joe Rogan
          Hilton Smith
          Turkey Stearnes
          Willie Wells
          Joe Williams

          Rube Foster-Pioneer

          Now these seems to be a little more then it should but 1 guy I cannot believe is not in

          Buck O'Neil -Manager

          This man not only brought Negro Leagueres into the HOF...but he managed during the opening of segregation, bringing young men into the big leagues from the Negro Leagues

          I think he should be the sole selection this year

          What others do you think belong?
          " What others do you think belong? "

          Looking over the list of 39, I could see several making it.

          http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/ne...ndidates%20(30)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Imapotato
            Well it's not that no one bothered

            It's just with technology and things more readily accessible via the internet...many could work on it in a quick pace

            Wherein 10 years ago...one would have to research extensively in libraries and archives

            I heard one black reporter on ESPN say the same thing as you have and I wondered out loud

            "Why didn't you do it"

            and I am sure he wouldn't have an answer
            The internet was a huge help but what about the time and money needed to conduct such a thorough investigation. Someone has to foot the bill for the research, you aren't going to have a bunch of folks spending hours on end every day combing for clues and data for nothing...And even with technology's help it's going to take days, weeks, and even months to put together enough data into a system so that it can give an accurate portrayal of the players, managers, owners, umpires, innovators involved in the game so that those voting can have the best information available to help in their selection...

            Even so, it's a shame that it took such a long time for the ball to get rolling for this momentus event to take place. Maybe selection can help bring about more investigations into the past so that those in the future can learn...
            Best posts ever:
            Originally posted by nymdan
            Too... much... math... head... hurts...
            Originally posted by RuthMayBond
            I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Imapotato

              Now these seems to be a little more then it should but 1 guy I cannot believe is not in

              Buck O'Neil -Manager

              This man not only brought Negro Leagueres into the HOF...but he managed during the opening of segregation, bringing young men into the big leagues from the Negro Leagues

              I think he should be the sole selection this year

              What others do you think belong?
              If Torriente, Suttles and Mackey don't make it, there should be an investigation. I'd say Santop belongs for sure. They've kind of stretched their mandate to get Moore and Minoso on the ballot. If these guys are not going to get very serious consideration, why would one do that?

              The above comment seems to miss one key fact: the Hall has selected this group of folks who have dedicated oodles of time to promoting the cause of the Negro Leagues with the stated idea this is the last time they're going to visit the issue of Negro Leaguers. Under such circumstances, I can't see such a group naming less than a half dozen to the Hall, maybe quite a few more.

              For a discussion of who might go, see this thread in BBF: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=36458

              Jim Albright
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                I expect at least six Negro Leaguers to be named. If O'Neill gets elected he should have Ken Burns give his introduction speech.
                Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by efin98
                  The internet was a huge help but what about the time and money needed to conduct such a thorough investigation. Someone has to foot the bill for the research, you aren't going to have a bunch of folks spending hours on end every day combing for clues and data for nothing...And even with technology's help it's going to take days, weeks, and even months to put together enough data into a system so that it can give an accurate portrayal of the players, managers, owners, umpires, innovators involved in the game so that those voting can have the best information available to help in their selection...

                  Even so, it's a shame that it took such a long time for the ball to get rolling for this momentus event to take place. Maybe selection can help bring about more investigations into the past so that those in the future can learn...

                  Nope that's exactly what happened

                  Alot of websites sprouted up about the older days of baseball.
                  Old black newspapers went online
                  Negro league websites by various people

                  So the HOF reasearched what was already out there

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jalbright
                    If Torriente, Suttles and Mackey don't make it, there should be an investigation. I'd say Santop belongs for sure. They've kind of stretched their mandate to get Moore and Minoso on the ballot. If these guys are not going to get very serious consideration, why would one do that?

                    The above comment seems to miss one key fact: the Hall has selected this group of folks who have dedicated oodles of time to promoting the cause of the Negro Leagues with the stated idea this is the last time they're going to visit the issue of Negro Leaguers. Under such circumstances, I can't see such a group naming less than a half dozen to the Hall, maybe quite a few more.

                    For a discussion of who might go, see this thread in BBF: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=36458

                    Jim Albright
                    That's right...my HOF in my historical sim...the great Cristobal Torriente

                    I loved that guy in my non segregated 1920's
                    Mackey is a good one

                    Don't know about Suttles, but Santop has a case being one of the 1st best C's

                    But if a dozen?

                    1% of all major leaguers see the HOF

                    Wouldn't a dozen make 3% of Negro Leaguers?

                    Seems too much to me

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Imapotato
                      Nope that's exactly what happened

                      Alot of websites sprouted up about the older days of baseball.
                      Old black newspapers went online
                      Negro league websites by various people

                      So the HOF reasearched what was already out there

                      It still took time and money to get things gathered together, they kind of go hand in hand with the rise of the information age
                      Best posts ever:
                      Originally posted by nymdan
                      Too... much... math... head... hurts...
                      Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                      I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        One thing I forgot to mention is each and every one of the players to be voted on this weekend gets and individual up-down vote. There are a lot of factors which encourage a large number of inductees coming from this ballot.

                        The percentage argument is deceptive because Negro Leaguers never had the bench the major leaguers typically did. If we figure three starting pitchers, the Negro Leagues had 11 starters/team of their 13-15 man rosters. Major leaguers at least in the recent past, counting 5 starting pitchers and a closer, have 14 starter slots on a 25 man roster. We can safely say that those who don't advance to starter status in either league aren't HOF material--but that eliminates only 2-4 Negro Leaguers versus 11 current major leaguers. That'll skew the numbers to be sure.

                        Jim Albright
                        Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                        Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                        A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Imapotato
                          But if a dozen?

                          1% of all major leaguers see the HOF

                          Wouldn't a dozen make 3% of Negro Leaguers?

                          Seems too much to me
                          Why go against the merit of this whole selection because there's a higher percentage of Negro Leaguers than there are Major Leaguers? If they are worthy then they should be enshrined, regardless of what percentage would be in there.
                          Best posts ever:
                          Originally posted by nymdan
                          Too... much... math... head... hurts...
                          Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                          I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            First, when I say the percentage argument is deceptive, I don't mean to even imply any evil motives to Imapotato. Rather, I mean the argument has a seductive quality which doesn't really fit the situation.

                            Second, Imapotato, my (older) edition of Riley's Encyclopedia of the Negro leagues claims there were 4000 Negro Leaguers or so. What is your source which would indicate the number is 1/4 the number I'm quoting? While I'm at it, do you have a source for the number of major leaguers? Given that 200 major leaguers or so are in the Hall, 1% would mean 20,000 major leaguers, which is a bit on the high side according to my encyclopedia, which claims about 16,000 through 2003.

                            Third, if you want to make a percentage argument, you should exclude all major leaguers with under 4000 AB. I don't think anyone has made it as a player with that few or less if he was included solely for his play in the majors. You'd have to come up with an equivalent for the Negro Leagues in terms of how many seasons as a regular that number represents, which is quite difficult given the fluctuating numbers of games the Negro Leaguers played. But such a comparison would be much more apples to apples.

                            Jim Albright
                            Last edited by jalbright; 02-25-2006, 09:40 AM.
                            Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                            Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                            A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by efin98
                              It still took time and money to get things gathered together, they kind of go hand in hand with the rise of the information age
                              You wuld think that if some of these black entertainers and players and business people really understood their history, they would gladly foot the bill.

                              I'm legally blind. if I had millions of dollars, and I knew there was something that was available to allow past blind people to get recognized for their accomplishments, and it just needed funding, I would gladly hire the people to do the research and get it published.

                              Of course, sadly, in the case of today's playres it might be understandable, as there are some who know nothing of baseball history, or at least very little compared to their predecessors, who played and lived baseball.
                              If Baseball Integrated Early - baseball integrated from the beginning - and "Brotherhood and baseball," the U.S. history companion, at http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Baseballifsandmore - IBIE updated for 2011.

                              "Full House Chronology" at yahoo group fullhousefreaks & fullhouse4life with help of many fans, thanks for the input

                              Comment

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