Negro League HOF voting this weekend!!!

[Imapotato]

It still took time and money to get things gathered together, they kind of go hand in hand with the rise of the information age

Well time but not necessarily money

You and I are talkign baseball right now...and there are alot of sites that just became curious about negro league baseball...with many volunteers posting this or that about certain players

So I think it was a long ardous process with many volunteers looking back into that day and age...then 'experts' compiling it

[Imapotato]

First, when I say the percentage argument is deceptive, I don't mean to even imply any evil motives to Imapotato. Rather, I mean the argument has a seductive quality which doesn't really fit the situation.

Second, Imapotato, my (older) edition of Riley's Encyclopedia of the Negro leagues claims there were 4000 Negro Leaguers or so. What is your source which would indicate the number is 1/4 the number I'm quoting? While I'm at it, do you have a source for the number of major leaguers? Given that 200 major leaguers or so are in the Hall, 1% would mean 20,000 major leaguers, which is a bit on the high side according to my encyclopedia, which claims about 16,000 through 2003.

Third, if you want to make a percentage argument, you should exclude all major leaguers with under 4000 AB. I don't think anyone has made it as a player with that few or less if he was included solely for his play in the majors. You'd have to come up with an equivalent for the Negro Leagues in terms of how many seasons as a regular that number represents, which is quite difficult given the fluctuating numbers of games the Negro Leaguers played. But such a comparison would be much more apples to apples.

Jim Albright

I am using the arguement the HOF gives, which I thought everyone knew and you would pick up on, that less then 1% of all players that played in MLB are in the HOF

They use that point alot, especially when I try and get Sherry Magee in

It's a disclaimer for them...so if they use that for overall MLB baseball, they would use the same logic for Negro League baseball

[efin98]

Well time but not necessarily money

You and I are talkign baseball right now...and there are alot of sites that just became curious about negro league baseball...with many volunteers posting this or that about certain players

So I think it was a long ardous process with many volunteers looking back into that day and age...then 'experts' compiling it

"Group effort" right about covers it. No one person or group can claim credit, simply a complete effort from countless people.

[Imapotato]

"Group effort" right about covers it. No one person or group can claim credit, simply a complete effort from countless people.

Yep, the important thing is that it is 90% complete and documented...so guys that were kept out of this great game, will get their accolades...or should I say their descendents

[jalbright]

I am using the arguement the HOF gives, which I thought everyone knew and you would pick up on, that less then 1% of all players that played in MLB are in the HOF

They use that point alot, especially when I try and get Sherry Magee in

It's a disclaimer for them...so if they use that for overall MLB baseball, they would use the same logic for Negro League baseball

Well, I think most of us here know that Cooperstown isn't always (usually?) the home of the deepest thinkers and most knowledgeable people on baseball. I'd go for Magee, too, FWIW.

Jim Albright

[Brian McKenna]

i believe the recent research was done by 50 people scattered throughout the country

[baseballPAP]

17 NLers in!

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2006/060227.htm

Wow...just wow.

[Dontworry]

Update. 17 people made it in, but not Buck O'Neil or Minoso.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2346848

[Imapotato]

A travesty...utter mockery

Alex Pompez, one of the most notorious criminals of his time

But NOT Buck O'Neil

Effa Manley whom many state was not even black...had an affair with some of her players, and inherited the club from her dead husband

But not Minoso?

Cooper, Brown, Wilson?

[DoubleX]

Even when trying to do the right thing and set things right, the Hall of Fame still manages to make some egregious mistakes. Buck O'Neill, for the ambassador he has been to the game, for keeping the memories alive for so many great players that were denied their chance in Majors, he deserves to be in. There is no good explanation for him not making it on this ballot.

Another I am have major difficulty reconciling is Minnie Minoso. His career was relatively short in the Negro Leagues, but he was a very, very important historical figure in baseball who has never received his proper due. He was among that first wave, and even more importantly, he was the groundbreaker for black-hispanic players. On top of that, he was an excellent ballplayer to boot, that lost a number of prime years because of segregation. This ballot should have made up for the crime of stripping Minoso of those years, and honor his place in baseball history.

[jalbright]

I can't disagree with you over Pompez and Manley. I do need to see more about Cooper to be convinced. I don't know which Brown you're complaining about, but I'd say Willard Brown has the lesser credentials of the two and he still was an impressive hitter for power and average. Wilson was an excellent doubles hitter and had great averages.

Buck O'Neil can only be said to be deserving on the basis of his status as an ambassador for the game--and if you are queasy about that description, it's right to leave him out. Minoso is a surprise, because I don't know why they shoehorned him into this category only to turn him down. It would have made more sense just to leave him out of this particular discussion.

Jim Albright

[Imapotato]

Jim

I said Buck O'Neil as a manager who groomed guys like Banks, Mays et al

or how about the 1st black coach (if that matters to some PC people)
or even as you state...a Pioneer

But he really should go in as the manager of the Monarchs...the Yankees of their times

[Imapotato]

Oh and its Ray Brown

not Willard Brown I have a problem with

[jalbright]

O'Neill may have had a role in grooming some of those players, but I wouldn't put him in the Hall based on what I know about that. Perhaps someone can change my mind on that point, but I have yet to hear it. As for being the manager of the Monarchs, he didn't get that job until 1948, when the Negro Leagues were already becoming seriously depleted. That kind of is like being the Yankee manager after Casey Stengel, if not Ralph Houk. In Buck's day, the Grays were the powerhouse up through WW II, and they were usually managed by Vic Harris (he won five titles in the Negro Leagues--when those leagues were significantly stronger than they were when Buck managed.

Jim Albright

[OOSL]

I love Buck O'Neill, I could listen to him talk all day.

But I don't think he should have been elected based on the fact that he's alive and was so engaging in the Ken Burns documentary.

Pompez does nothing for me, not a good choice there.