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Negro League HOF voting this weekend!!!

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  • #31
    Well, Ray Brown has also been elected to the BBF HOF, and here's some of the reasons why:

    The only truly notable accolades I found for him is the fact he finished among the top six pitchers in the 1993 poll of Negro League Museum members. He just was recently elected into the Baseball Think Factory "Hall of Merit".

    The Baseball Think Factory guys project him to a major league record of 270-190, which translates to 238 Fibonacci Win Points. They seem to think he would have had 320-330 career win shares, but they didn't break that total down. An earlier estimate put him at 299 career win shares, 134 for his best five consecutive, and a best three of 43, 43 and 30. I think that earlier, more conservative evaluation places him between Joe McGinnity (260 career WS, 162 best 5 consecutive, top 3 of 42, 40 and 35 and 260 Fibonacci) and Early Wynn (308 career, 110 best 5 consecutive, top 3 of 28, 25 and 24 and 221 Fibonacci). I think the projection is credible, especially when you look at what he did everywhere he played (Source: page 96 of Cool Papas and Double Duties by William McNeil):

    League............................................ .won-lost.......pct
    Negro leagues....................................146-55.........726
    Mexican League...................................51-36.........586
    Cuban Winter League............................46-20.........697
    Puerto Rican Winter League....................29- 8.........784
    Total............................................. .272-119........696

    All the above-mentioned leagues had at least some top level talent. Quite a record, even if in the Negro Leagues he played for the Homestead Grays at their dominating best.

    According to Jim Riley's Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Leagues, page 124:
    The Homestead Grays ace had a sinker, slider and a fine fastball, but his curveball was his best pitch. So confident was Ray in all of his pitches that he would throw a curve with a 3-0 count . . . . Later in his career, he developed an effective knuckleball, and he had good control of all his pitchers. . . . [He had] a nineteen-year career . . . [highlighted by] a perfect game in a seven inning contest against the Chicago American Giants in 1945.
    William McNeil in Cool Papas and Double Duties, page 96 adds:
    He was a dangerous man at the plate, rapping the ball at a .316 clip. . . .
    He pitched the Grays to nine consecutive Negro National League pennants between 1937 and 1945.
    Jim Albright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    • #32
      John Beckwith, John Donaldson, and Home Run Johnson should have gotten in.

      Comment


      • #33
        17 - but could have been more - especially like the old timer frank grant getting in

        Ray Brown
        Willard Brown
        Andy Cooper
        Frank Grant
        Pete Hill
        Biz Mackey
        Effa Manley
        José Méndez
        Alex Pompez
        Cum Posey
        Louis Santop
        Mule Suttles
        Ben Taylor
        Cristobal Torriente
        Sol White
        J.L. Wilkinson
        Jud Wilson
        Last edited by Brian McKenna; 02-27-2006, 02:22 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Imapotato
          Effa Manley whom many state was not even black...had an affair with some of her players, and inherited the club from her dead husband

          ?
          manley and wilkinson were caucasion - what does that have to do with anything? - didn't realize someone's sex life had anything to do with the hall process - she actually had a lot to do with club and league operations other than just "inheriting" a club
          Last edited by Brian McKenna; 02-27-2006, 02:24 PM.

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          • #35
            an owner should be HOF caliber

            She didn't build up anything, she didn't do anything revolutionary, so why her?

            As for the white redference, all I heard today was that the 1st woman, and an african american woman at that was elected to the HOF

            Blew me away how some journalists know zilch
            Last edited by Imapotato; 02-27-2006, 04:15 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Imapotato

              She didn't build up anything, she didn't do anything revolutionary?
              really can't argue too much there - i always held that opinion as well - there were definitely others who contributed more and were around longer

              Comment


              • #37
                Sound like good choices, though I agree 2-3 more could have and perhaps should have been chosen.

                Agree about manley, if she wasn't as integral, but I don't think outside sex life should have anything to do with it, I'm sure she was still less wild than the Bambino :-) So that's not a problem for me.

                Seems all the players were pretty deserving, at least Judy Johnson level. (While I've heard some say Johnson wasn't the best, Connie Mack listed him as one he'd sing, IIRC, Grifith tried to integrate with him in the 1930s, and to me that means they saw something realy good. In my mind, even if he's not Mike Schmidt or George Brett, he's George Kell or Pie Traynor, and they were mighty good.

                In fact, considering the debate on this board about Traynor, maybe he's a very good comparison.

                As for RAy Brown, sure his career was helped by being on good teams, but so was Whitey Ford's and Jim Palmer's.

                Glad to see Frank Grant make it.
                If Baseball Integrated Early - baseball integrated from the beginning - and "Brotherhood and baseball," the U.S. history companion, at http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Baseballifsandmore - IBIE updated for 2011.

                "Full House Chronology" at yahoo group fullhousefreaks & fullhouse4life with help of many fans, thanks for the input

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                • #38
                  I just mentioned her sex life because that and her inheriting the club is the only thing "noteworthy" of her legacy

                  Yea, she handled payroll, marketing...big deal most owners did at one time or another

                  I still say Buck O'Neil's managerial career was not on results, but more for his 'role' as a manager of a dying soon to be segregated league

                  He was a mentor to black players going to unfamaliar surroundings, maybe being housed away from teammates etc.

                  I say he was nearly flawless in what he taught and primed those guys for...

                  His players were more succesful coming into MLB then other manager's players


                  Plus just to top it off, he was the 1st black coach, which should have gotten him at least 1 or 2 votes...it was monumental on a small scale

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Minnie Minoso got hosed.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by julusnc
                      Minnie Minoso got hosed.

                      I agree with you 100%. He was a 7 time All Star, won 3 gold Gloves, top 5 MVP voting four times, top 10 in OPS eight times. And he did it after not playing in the majors until he was 28. Had he been allowed to play 5-6 more years in his early 20s he would have career HOF numbers.

                      What makes this even goofier is that unlike all of the others that were elected he is ALIVE!! Here you have a guy that is desrving and would truly enjoy the honor. Instead we are going to see distant relatives picking up the awards for the deceased greats. They all deserve it too but it's foolish to leave out a living person that could bring some humanity to the award ceremony. The selection committee blew it in my opinion on this one.
                      "Batting slumps? I never had one. When a guy hits .358, he doesn't have slumps."

                      Rogers Hornsby, 1961

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                      • #41
                        Minoso should get in from the veteran's committee, not the Negro League committee, he wasn't a major negro league star.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by julusnc
                          Minnie Minoso got hosed.
                          I agree.

                          Minoso is good enough just off his major league numbers. He shouldn't even need his Negro League stats considered. He had a better career than Clemente.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by julusnc
                            Minnie Minoso got hosed.
                            Not by this election. Every other election, yes.

                            Sorry but Minoso's career was made in the majors and that's where he deserves his election from.
                            Last edited by efin98; 02-28-2006, 12:40 PM.
                            Best posts ever:
                            Originally posted by nymdan
                            Too... much... math... head... hurts...
                            Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                            I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              It sickens me that people are still upset by the choices.

                              Minnie Minoso didn't play long enough in the Negro Leagues to earn a spot through the committee. Sorry but his career was made in the Majors, not the Negro Legues.

                              Buck O'Neil was a great person for the game but his contributions don't merit enshrinement as a player or coach. Being a mentor and the first black coach isn't enough for him. He needed more.

                              Effa Manley deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame. Any owner who can improve things for multiple teams the way she did for the Eagles deserves a spot in the Hall of Fame.
                              Best posts ever:
                              Originally posted by nymdan
                              Too... much... math... head... hurts...
                              Originally posted by RuthMayBond
                              I understand, I lost all my marbles years ago

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Dontworry
                                I agree.

                                Minoso is good enough just off his major league numbers. He shouldn't even need his Negro League stats considered. He had a better career than Clemente.
                                You think? I think that's a hard sell. Don't get me wrong, I think Minoso should be in the Hall both because he was a great player (who lost a number of prime years to the color barrier) and because he was a groundbreaker and extremely influential in the proliferation of the game to the Latin America. Nevertheless, I think Clemente was the better player.

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