Gaylord Perry: Cheater

[LouGehrig]

Gaylord Perry admitted that he cheated. He is in the Hall of Fame, but the Hall of Fame does not acknowledge that he broke any rules.

McGwire has been found guilty of nothing, but the court of public opinion will prevent him from ever getting into the Hall of Fame.

http://major-league-baseball.suite101.com/article.cfm/gaylord_perryhall_of_fame_cheater

[gojays]

The Hall of Fame has a history of looking the other way on popular players like Perry. Pete Rose broke rules, but he didn't cheat help his team win. At the same time Rose was being banned, Perry was being inducted. As Bill Lee once said, "The only thing Perry got for saying he threw spitballs was a couple thousand dollars in book royalties."

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have no problem with Perry.

I have no problem with McGwire.

Let's stop the Spanish Inquisition on steroids, implement independent testing that is truly random, and get on with the business of assessing how ballplayers performed on the field.

[JohnCropp]

That's why it's called the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Justice.

[SamtheBravesFan]

That's why it's called the Hall of Fame and not the Hall of Justice.

Later, at the Hall of Justice...

[White Knight]

Gaylord Perry admitted that he cheated. He is in the Hall of Fame, but the Hall of Fame does not acknowledge that he broke any rules.

McGwire has been found guilty of nothing, but the court of public opinion will prevent him from ever getting into the Hall of Fame.

http://major-league-baseball.suite10...f_fame_cheater

The thing is, he admitted cheating after he was elected. Once you're in the HOF, apparently (I posted a topic on this once and never got a straight answer) you can't be removed for any reason.

[KCGHOST]

Yeah, life is like that. Fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

I guess we could let some of the Black Sox into the HoF. After all they didn't get caught cheating either. Their crime was more heinous but the only thing that kept them out of the HoF was the court of public opinion (at least until the creation of the ineligible list).

[Captain Cold Nose]

The thing is, he admitted cheating after he was elected. Once you're in the HOF, apparently (I posted a topic on this once and never got a straight answer) you can't be removed for any reason.

He actually admitted it during his career, in his autobiography, which came out in the seventies. But there is prescribed puniishment for doing what he did, and when caught, he was punished as the rules advised. The level of crime he committed was never taken as seriously than what McGwire. Just like in life, all crimes are not treated the same, as well they shouldn't be.

[Pete Rose Rounding Third]

McGwire isn't being deprived of his individual rights as the result of steroid suspicion, so I don't see how he's being treated badly. No one has an inherent right to membership in the HOF. Many will say that McGwire's membership by merit is far from inevitable, steroids or not.

[brett]

He actually admitted it during his career, in his autobiography, which came out in the seventies. But there is prescribed puniishment for doing what he did, and when caught, he was punished as the rules advised. The level of crime he committed was never taken as seriously than what McGwire. Just like in life, all crimes are not treated the same, as well they shouldn't be.

Exactly. It was treated more like a "penalty" in football. Spitballs had a penalty. Offensive holding has a penalty.

Illegally spying on other teams in football would be what I would call cheating.

McGwire was not on a hall of fame path prior to '95. I would still let him in but he OWES an explanation because after the hearings his lawyer stated publically that McGwire would be able to tell the complete story eventually. Maybe that story will even clear him. Maybe he refuses turn in teammates, but he owes an explanation. If he didn't use, he's in. If he did, and tells the complete story, I could still put him in. Until he speaks, he has made himself responsible for the next move.

Rose would be in the hall of fame if he wanted to be. Of that I have NO doubt. He is not in because he does not care to be, or is not humble enough to do the things that would be needed to get him in. He is richer for not being in than he would have been if he had gone in. He could make a humble statement and be in in 3 years at ANY TIME.

[Paul Wendt]

[Perry] actually admitted it during his career, in his autobiography, which came out in the seventies. But there is prescribed puniishment for doing what he did, and when caught, he was punished as the rules advised. The level of crime he committed was never taken as seriously [as McGwire's].

But for a time McGwire's "crime" was considered as innocent as Perry's.
"McGwire takes andro" was only about setting a bad example for boys (and girls?). Controversy like that over Charles Barkley's bad boy advertisement or public service announcement, I am not a role model. Or like the vulgar behavior of fans at the ballpark.

[White Knight]

McGwire isn't being deprived of his individual rights as the result of steroid suspicion, so I don't see how he's being treated badly. No one has an inherent right to membership in the HOF. Many will say that McGwire's membership by merit is far from inevitable, steroids or not.

No, no one says he would be a member if it wasn't for steroids. He easily has the numbers to be in, but because they THINK he MIGHT have used, they voted no.

[White Knight]

Rose would be in the hall of fame if he wanted to be. Of that I have NO doubt. He is not in because he does not care to be, or is not humble enough to do the things that would be needed to get him in. He is richer for not being in than he would have been if he had gone in. He could make a humble statement and be in in 3 years at ANY TIME.

I don't know about that. He already admitted lying a couple of years ago, and apologized. I don't see him going in anytime soon.

[Pete Rose Rounding Third]

No, no one says he would be a member if it wasn't for steroids. He easily has the numbers to be in, but because they THINK he MIGHT have used, they voted no.

Easily? This (http://www.broowaha.com/article.php?id=877) argument seems like a the typical reasoning of a HOF voter. The author himself is not a HOF voter, but he seems to approach the vote the way they typically do:

If it weren’t for the steroid issue, the former bash brother would probably be a first-ballot slam dunk selection. He hit 583 career homers, which by itself should be enough to get him there.

But, if you analyze his stats a little more closely, there are arguments for McGwire's absence from the Hall. He played 16 seasons and got 1,626 hits. There are only 13 players currently in the HOF with less. Then, add in the fact that he hit .263 lifetime, and the case against him becomes stronger.

A lot of players with lower averages than Mac are in the Hall, including huge names like Harmon Killebrew (.256) and Mike Schmidt (.267). But, both of them played longer than Mac did and had more career hits.

When you look even more carefully at McGwire’s career, you’ll see he wasn’t a big doubles guy (252), nor was he much of an RBI man (1,414). The latter is an indication that the man hit a lot of solo dingers and/or wasn’t a real run-producing threat.

Maybe if the HOF voters were more sabremetrically inclined, McGuire would get in. But the fact that McGuire is under suspicion of PED use plus the fact that his BA, H, and RBI are low for a HOF is enough of a combination to keep him turned back at the gate. Barry Bonds, with the same evidence against him, would make it to the HOF on the first and second ballot - unfortunately for BB, the PED case against him is much greater.

[jalbright]

Regarding Pete Rose, White Knight wrote:

I don't know about that. He already admitted lying a couple of years ago, and apologized. I don't see him going in anytime soon.

But that was well after a lot of posturing by Pete, and even then, came across as insincere. Pete obviously has a problem with gambling, but continues to deny it as well. Those things are huge blocks to reinstatement. If he'd taken his initial punishment and kept his mouth shut except to apologize for the problems he'd caused and gone into real treatment for a gambling addiction and stayed away from gambling publicly, I don't think there's much doubt Pete could have gotten allowed back in. Unfortunately, he kept loudly denying he'd done anything wrong only to eventually admit most of what was said about him was true--and still not sound contrite about it. That understandably really turned folks off. Now, it's certainly possible he's wrecked his chances of ever getting in--but it is certain it's not going to happen in the immediate future.