Frank Thomas for HOF?! HA!

[abacab]

I actually have Rose and Thomas ranked about even, which is why I said "arguably" above. Rose has big advantages in durability and versatility. Even if he was an average (at best) fielding 2B and 3B, the fact that he could play those positions is a big plus. But at his very best, Rose was nowhere near the monster that Thomas was from 1991 to 1997.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

[QUOTE=Tigerfan1974]

Joe Jackson, not Reggie!
Joe has a higher lifetime BA, 3d highest in history, Pete is of course the hit king and has a comparable BA and fielding percentage.
Frank's claim to fame is HR.

Frank's claim to fame is not HRs. Where do you get that from? Did you sleep through the entire 1990s? He's won a batting title, consistently hit over .300 in the 1990s, won two MVP awards, was always amongst the league leaders in OBP, slugging, total bases, runs. RBI, etc.

But you are right it is opinion. I think Frank is not HoF bound. Maybe I will be proven wrong one day.

By this do you mean that Thomas has not done enough to merit induction or are you saying that the HoF voters will not elect him?

[Tigerfan1974]

[QUOTE=Honus Wagner Rules]

Frank's claim to fame is not HRs. Where do you get that from? Did you sleep through the entire 1990s? He's won a batting title, consistently hit over .300 in the 1990s, won two MVP awards, was always amongst the league leaders in OBP, slugging, total bases, runs. RBI, etc.



By this do you mean that Thomas has not done enough to merit induction or are you saying that the HoF voters will not elect him?

Since there are no set parameters, I don't know if he has done enough or not.
I think, at least initially, the BBWAA will not put him in. He may make it some day, time will tell the tale.

[RuthMayBond]

I-Rod just for starters are ahead of Thomas.

To say nothing of soon to be retired, Palmeiro.

We await your reasoning

[abacab]

Bonds, A-Rod, I-Rod, Jeter, Griffey Jr., just for starters are ahead of Thomas.

To say nothing of recently retired Sosa, and soon to be retired, Palmeiro.
(despite my thought to the contrary on them.)

Bonds, A-Rod, and Griffey are definitely ahead of Thomas.

I wouldn't put Pudge ahead, but I can see the case for him, as he may be the best fielding catcher ever. He's overrated as a hitter though.

Jeter has had one year where he was a legitimate MVP candidate. Thomas had at least five, maybe seven or eight.

Sosa and Palmeiro have no business rating ahead of Thomas, even without mentioning the "S" word. Sosa had five outstanding years but not much else; Palmeiro had maybe one outstanding year and a bunch of really good years.

Bagwell and Piazza weren't mentioned, but I might rank them ahead of Thomas also. So there are three active players who definitely rank ahead of Thomas, and three more that might rank ahead. And that's it.

[Edgartohof]

Bonds, A-Rod, and Griffey are definitely ahead of Thomas.

I wouldn't put Pudge ahead, but I can see the case for him, as he may be the best fielding catcher ever. He's overrated as a hitter though.

Jeter has had one year where he was a legitimate MVP candidate. Thomas had at least five, maybe seven or eight.

Sosa and Palmeiro have no business rating ahead of Thomas, even without mentioning the "S" word. Sosa had five outstanding years but not much else; Palmeiro had maybe one outstanding year and a bunch of really good years.

Bagwell and Piazza weren't mentioned, but I might rank them ahead of Thomas also. So there are three active players who definitely rank ahead of Thomas, and three more that might rank ahead. And that's it.

I only have Bagwell, Griffey, A-Rod, and Bonds ahead of Thomas, with Piazza and Pudge only a couple slots back. So I'd say we are on the same page.

All in all, I find this to be a bit silly. Thomas IS going into the HOF, and most likely, on his 1st Ballot. He may have to wait a year due to some voters reservations to his time at DH, but that is only a small chance. He is one of the greatest hitters ever, and he proved that. His peak was one of historic proportions, putting up monster numbers for many years. I see no way that someone could legitimately say he doesn't belong, unless they don't look at the numbers, or just plain hate him for personal reasons (such as one of his massive HR's hitting them on the head - although I'd be proud of that myself - kind of ).

[Edgartohof]

<Originally Posted by abacab
Frank Thomas was arguably a better player than either Rose or Jackson.>

What!!???

I have him higher than both of them myself - I'm sure a lot of people do. In fact, I have Thomas as the 4th greatest 1Bman ever, whereas Rose and R.Jackson are still considerably behind.

[leecemark]

--If you lean heavily toward career totals then Rose would rate ahead of Thomas. I have him a little ahead due to his versatility, durability and longevity, but he was never as dominating a player as Thomas.
--Jackson is alot harder to see the case for. Thomas was clearly a better hitter in their respective peaks. Jackson was a more rounded player, but that only makes up so much ground from a corner outfielder. The second half of Thomas career has been a dispointment due to injuries. That still beats the second half of Jackson's - which didn't happen due to his involvement in a conspiracy to throw a WS.

[538280]

[QUOTE=dl4060]

What!!??? [/QUOTE


Are counting statistics the only things that interest you. You will find very few people who look at Rose or Reggie as better than Frank. Please give an objective argument as to why you think this. You will find it is very hard to give such an argument without numbers, as at that point it breaks down into opinion. How does Thomas compare with Sid Bream. You may not like statistics but they are the only way to quantify our opinions. Without them can you prove Thomas was better than Bream? You will find very few educated baseball fans who think Rose and Reggie were better than Frank. The only thing those two have are counting statistics.

I have Rose behind Thomas but not Reggie. Reggie has lots of advantages really, lots outside the counting stats.

Reggie wasn't much of fielder in his later days with the Yankees and the Angels, but with the A's he was a great fielder, known particularly for his strong arm and great speed. He led his league 4 times in outfield assists and twice in OF putouts, and PCA shows him being the 16th best RFer of all time for his career. He doesn't tend to get remembered as much of a fielder today because of his bad decline period, where he was a bad fielder. People will always remember then end more than the prime (the same seems to be happening with Thomas).

Thomas was of course a horrible fielder, even for a 1B and spent about half of his career with no defensive value whatsoever as a DH. Big advantage Reggie.

On the basepaths its the same thing. Reggie in his youth and prime was a very, very fast runner who stole a few bases and was known as a good baserunner. If you don't trust the numbers, he was recruited out of high school as a running back for Arizona State, and even played there a year on the Freshmen team (freshmen couldn't play varsity back then). Do you think ASU would have recruited a slow runner to be their running back? No way.

Frank Thomas did of course play football too at his college, Auburn. But, he was a tight end who was mostly a blocker and lived on strength, not speed. He has always been a tremendously slow runner and a clogger of the basepaths.

Thomas was a better hitter, certainly. He did have a better hitting peak, though Reggie did have one great year in 1969. But, Reggie has the longevity. He did it for much longer. I favor peak over longevity usually in my rankings, and I make no exception here but peak performance is not enough to overcome the big longevity difference IMO. To date, I believe Reggie has about 100 more Win Shares than Frank.

And though Frank does have one of the best hitting peaks of all time (may be second to only Ruth and Williams), for overall peak performance Reggie really isn't too far behind. Frank was getting almost all his value from hitting and not getting much of anything else. Reggie was pulling it from different places. Reggie's '69 is scored by WS as better than any Thomas season, though that probably would be different if not for the '94 strike, and I do certainly give Frank credit for that.

Shoeless Joe isn't within a mile of Thomas. His league was much weaker, his hitting wasn't any better, and he will end up not lasting as long.

[Joe Simbam]

"Reggie Jackson, Robin Yount, Paul Molitor, Kirby Puckett, Ryne Sandberg, etc. don't belong in the Hall"

Ok, maybe Kirby shouldn't be in there but he had a shortened career because of vision problems. Sandberg is the best 2nd basemen that I've ever seen and few are ever spoken of to make a historical case. Gold gloves, used to hold the home run title for the position. You're out of your mind! :grouchy

[Captain Cold Nose]

Ok, maybe Kirby shouldn't be in there but he had a shortened career because of vision problems. Sandberg is the best 2nd basemen that I've ever seen and few are ever spoken of to make a historical case. Gold gloves, used to hold the home run title for the position. You're out of your mind! :grouchy

He's not. In this case, anyway. He was imitating another member of the site.

[Tigerfan1974]

We await your reasoning

I meant JOE JACKSON, not Reggie.

Secondly, I put Sosa and Palmeiro ahead of Thomas, S-word aside, because of their homerun totals, even though there are no career levels that guarantee entry. :o

I-Rod is the premier catcher of this time, even ahead of Piazza, whereas Thomas is among some good 1st basemen like Palmeiro, Thome and Bagwell. McGwire of course is ahead of him, and will get in first because he is already retired.

[538280]

I meant JOE JACKSON, not Reggie.

We're still awaiting your explantion, in fact even more so. Reggie definitely has a case, and I would even agree with you he's better than Thomas. Joe Jackson isn't within a mile IMO.

And Frank Thomas was twice the hitter McGwire, Sosa, or Palmeiro were.

[Dontworry]

I may sound like a broken record, but baseball should take a clue from football and base election on what they did on the field, not in life.
Rose and Joe Jackson belong in the Hall!!! 'Nuf said.

Why do so many people support shoeless joe and pete rose ?

Good God, they were Seeking to destroy the game and turn baseball into a soap opera, rather than a sport.

Both should never sniff the HOF.

[Edgartohof]

Good God, they were Seeking to destroy the game and turn baseball into a soap opera, rather than a sport.

Are you sure they weren't just human, and made a mistake (ones which they wish they hadn't made)? Hey, maybe I'm wrong.

I do have a question, all "politics" aside, on the numbers, would you put them in the Hall? If they were not involved in those situations, did they do enough to be in the Hall?