Does Frank White belong in the HOF?

[jjpm74]

I've never really thought of Frank White as a HOFer, but I've seen him mentioned in several HOF conversations, so I thought I'd ask.

Offensively, Frank White was average, but defensively he was a star.

81 HOF Monitor
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One of his most similars is in the HOF in Bill Mazeroski and many consider him a mistake. Dave Concepcion who is also one of his similars and gets some support for the HOF.

5-time all star
8-time gold glove winner

[Brooklyn]

Not a good offensive player. .255 / .293 / .383 / 85 OPS+ is just not good enough regardless of how good his defense is. While this is similar to Mazeroski, I view him as a mistake.

His 8 gold gloves and 5 all-stars (only one as a starter) are not enough to overcome the fact that he was never on the offensive leaderboard for anything during his career.

[KCGHOST]

Frank White was an awesome defender. Eight Gold Gloves and cheated of a couple others. The thing about his defense was that he could make a game saving/winning in the ninth innings when most supposed "good gloves" become awfully short on range. He was worth the price of admission to Royals Stadium every time I went out there.

HoFer, though?? Uh, no. Just wasn't much of an offensive force at all. A career OPS+ of 85 is just awful. He did develop some power late in his career that tends to make most people think he became a "good" hitter. But it just isn't true.

He was no worse a hitter than Mazeroski, but I don't see that as much of a reason to induct a guy.

[Paul Wendt]

I've never really thought of Frank White as a HOFer, but I've seen him mentioned in several HOF conversations, so I thought I'd ask.

Offensively, Frank White was average, but defensively he was a star.

Wasn't he more like average for a shortstop?
--or a catcher at sometimes in baseball history. Where are they now?

One of his most similars is in the HOF in Bill Mazeroski and many consider him a mistake. Dave Concepcion who is also one of his similars and gets some support for the HOF.

Dave Concepcion was a shortstop and superior to White as a batter; better for his career, much better in his prime. (OPS+ ~93 after his first three seasons, which was 85-8600 plate appearances, 100 more than White. OPS+ 100-101 during his ten-year prime.)

Frank White is not among the most similar batters for Dave Concepcion. I believe that is partly because White hit more like a shortstop than a 2Bman.
(This is a "vote for one" poll, I believe, but two options look good to me.)

[Fuzzy Bear]

Frank White was an awesome defender. Eight Gold Gloves and cheated of a couple others. The thing about his defense was that he could make a game saving/winning in the ninth innings when most supposed "good gloves" become awfully short on range. He was worth the price of admission to Royals Stadium every time I went out there.

HoFer, though?? Uh, no. Just wasn't much of an offensive force at all. A career OPS+ of 85 is just awful. He did develop some power late in his career that tends to make most people think he became a "good" hitter. But it just isn't true.

He was no worse a hitter than Mazeroski, but I don't see that as much of a reason to induct a guy.

It all depends on how much you value defense, and how legitimate you view Mazeroski's elevation to the HOF.

If one believes Maz is a HOFer, then, really, how can you say White is not?

How valuable was White's and Maz's defense? I tend to believe it did not offset their offensive limitations enough for the HOF, but those guys were the best in the field at 2B, perhaps ever. That ought to keep the discussion going, at the very least.

[stejay]

Mybe, you never know. One thing is for sure- Jeter won't get in because of the strength of his fielding.

[scottmitchell74]

Good for a while but needed a stronger peak or just more production.

[Fuzzy Bear]

It all depends on how much you value defense, and how legitimate you view Mazeroski's elevation to the HOF.

If one believes Maz is a HOFer, then, really, how can you say White is not?

How valuable was White's and Maz's defense? I tend to believe it did not offset their offensive limitations enough for the HOF, but those guys were the best in the field at 2B, perhaps ever. That ought to keep the discussion going, at the very least.

The case for Frank White is basically one that says that if Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF, then Frank White belongs because they are almost the same player.

Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because he was considered the greatest defensive player in history at any position. That makes him unique, and a "Narrative HOFer". Frank White's numbers are all a bit below Mazeroski's, so if you view Maz as a mistake or a unique "Narrative" selection, why would you include Frank White?

Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, and Jeff Kent are all better players, and by a lot. They should go in before White, and in that order. Gil McDougald had higher WAR in a shorter career and wasn't done when he retired prematurely. Buddy Myer has a greater WAR and a career line almost identical to Billy Herman. Larry Doyle had a higher WAR and was considered the best 2Bman in the NL for during the 1910s. There are so many cases specifically ahead of Frank White that it would be unfair to induct White before these others.

[Cougar]

The case for Frank White is basically one that says that if Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF, then Frank White belongs because they are almost the same player.

Bill Mazeroski is in the HOF because he was considered the greatest defensive player in history at any position. That makes him unique, and a "Narrative HOFer". Frank White's numbers are all a bit below Mazeroski's, so if you view Maz as a mistake or a unique "Narrative" selection, why would you include Frank White?

Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph, and Jeff Kent are all better players, and by a lot. They should go in before White, and in that order. Gil McDougald had higher WAR in a shorter career and wasn't done when he retired prematurely. Buddy Myer has a greater WAR and a career line almost identical to Billy Herman. Larry Doyle had a higher WAR and was considered the best 2Bman in the NL for during the 1910s. There are so many cases specifically ahead of Frank White that it would be unfair to induct White before these others.

I hear you about fairness, but it's simply too late to be truly "fair" to Doyle, Myer, even probably McDougald. Justice delayed is justice denied. Virtually no one who every saw the first two men play are still alive, and those who saw McDougald are leaving us all too quickly.

I strongly believe all the men you mentioned, (except perhaps McDougald, though I wouldn't mind, but if one only plays ten years, you generally need to put up some legendary seasons, and Gil just wasn't that kind of player, at least in immediately obvious ways), belong in the HOF. The three that were roughly White's contemporaries, plus Kent in the succeeding generation, all should surely go in before White.

Was White better or worse than Doyle and Myer? Or Ross Barnes, Cupid Childs, or Hardy Richardson? It gets awfully tricky; you have pretty different skill sets (Doyle had a great bat but an iron glove), massive timeline differences, segregation, equipment, field conditions, field types (grass vs. turf)...jeez, whattya do about Barnes's fair-foul bunts? Even with all the new metrics, it's pretty subjective.

That said...White is alive. White's fans are alive. Goodness, it's not impossible White's parents are alive! I'd rather honor a guy with whom we can all enjoy, remember firsthand, and celebrate his career and excellence, rather than be a slave to a rigid rank ordering and induct, say, Doyle, of whom we only have yellowed, curling newspaper clippings and - if we're lucky - an elderly grandchild or great-grandchild to sit on the podium and thank the Hall for the horribly belated honor, and then give White the same hollow treatment in 2057 or something.