Best managers outside the Hall of Fame

[leecemark]

--In the Surburbs of Cooperstown project we are nearly through the process of drafting the best 200 players eligible for, but not in, the Hall of Fame. We will be drafting manager for those 10 teams as well. If you have any suggestions for best non-Hall of Fame managers we'd like to hear them.

[leecemark]

--A few suggestions to get the ball rolling; Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Billy Martin, Charlie Grimm, Davey Johnson, George Stallings, Pat Moran and Danny Murtaugh. We need 10 names and, frankly, I can't think of 10 who belong in the discussion - and only 2 I actually support.

[soberdennis]

Williams is going in this year. And it is about time.So is Billy Southworth, whose induction is overdue.
I assume you are talking about retired managers since we are talking HOF. Otherwise, I might suggest Torre, Pinella, Leyland, Cox, and LaRussa, all of whom should eventually get in except for maybe Lou. But I think an argument can be made for him too.
I also assume you are disallowing managers who are in as players. Otherwise, you can include Berra, Schoendienst, and Cochrane.
Fred Haney is one you might want to include. Ralph Houk is another.

[Aqua]

Gene Mauch? Bobby Valentine, especially if you add his Japanese work -- though he's still active there of course.

You're right...there's not a lot of deserving managers outside the Hall.

[Freakshow]

--A few suggestions to get the ball rolling; Whitey Herzog, Dick Williams, Billy Martin, Charlie Grimm, Davey Johnson, George Stallings, Pat Moran and Danny Murtaugh. We need 10 names and, frankly, I can't think of 10 who belong in the discussion - and only 2 I actually support.

Some other possibilities:

Steve O'Neill
Tom Kelly
Jim Mutrie
Chuck Dressen
Felipe Alou

Also, to be clear on eligibility, these are the rules:

RULES FOR ELECTION OF MANAGERS AND UMPIRES

6. Eligible Candidates:


A. Eligible candidates must be selected from Baseball Managers and Umpires who have been retired from organized Baseball as Managers or Umpires for at least five (5) years prior to the election. If the candidate is 65 years old at the time of retirement, the waiting period is reduced to six (6) months. If the candidate reaches the age of 65 during the five-year waiting period, the candidate becomes eligible six months after the candidate's 65th birthday.

B. Those whose careers entailed involvement as both manager or umpire, and another category (managers/executives/umpires/players) will be considered for their overall contribution to the game of Baseball; however, the specific category in which these individuals shall be considered will be determined by the role in which they were most prominent. In those instances when a candidate is prominent as both a player and as a manager, executive or umpire, the BBWAA-appointed Historical Overview Committee shall determine that individual's candidacy as a player (Players Ballot), as a manager or as an umpire (Managers/Umpires Ballot) or as an executive/pioneer (Executive/Pioneer Ballot). Candidates may only appear on one ballot per election. Those designated as players must fulfill the requirements of 6 (A).

C. Any person designated by the Office of the Commissioner of Major League Baseball as ineligible shall not be an eligible candidate.

[leecemark]

Williams is going in this year. And it is about time.So is Billy Southworth, whose induction is overdue.
I assume you are talking about retired managers since we are talking HOF. Otherwise, I might suggest Torre, Pinella, Leyland, Cox, and LaRussa, all of whom should eventually get in except for maybe Lou. But I think an argument can be made for him too.
I also assume you are disallowing managers who are in as players. Otherwise, you can include Berra, Schoendienst, and Cochrane.
Fred Haney is one you might want to include. Ralph Houk is another.

--I definately support Torre and Cox, but they are not eligible. Leyland and Pinellla and I suppose LaRussa (although I don't much care for the man or his style of managing) are also strong candidates. You can only make the Hall once so players don't have a second eligibility as managers.

[jalbright]

Among Negro Leaguers, there's C. I. Taylor (a horrible oversight by the Negro Leagues committee, IMHO), Vic Harris, and Frank Warfield. Taylor is in the BBF HOF but not Cooperstown per a check of Cooperstown's website. You can learn more about those three starting at posts 61-63 on this page of the Albright's Musings thread: http://baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=32451&page=3

[jalbright]

For my pick, it'll be C. I. Taylor.

[Bill Burgess]

Here are some candidates from my Greatest Managers ballot, with the ineligible ones removed. Don't know if Anson, Chance, Clarke are ineligible since they are already enshrined as players. If so, I'll delete them.

4. Billy Martin - 1969, 1971-83, '85, '88 - traveling salesman, won wherever he went. Famed as Yank skipper, feuds with Steinbrenner.

7. Whitey Herzog - KC (1975-79), Cardinals (1980-90). Everywhere he went, he won. Like B. Martin.

23. George Stallings - Braves (1913-20), Famed for '14 win.

24. Kid Gleason - White Sox (1919-23). Went 1, 2 with the Black Sox in '19-20. Then 7, 5, 7 with the carcass of the White Sox. He was real brains behind White Sox win in '17. Rowlings was just for show.

25. Danny Murtaugh - Pirates (1957-64, '67, '70-71, '73-76. Won 2 pennants and 2 Divisions. But also came in 4th or lower 7 times.

26. Charlie Grimm - Cubs (1932-38, '44-49, '60), Braves (1952-56). After long 1B career, when with Cubs initially, ran off 2, 3, 3, 1, 2, 2, 3. Later with Braves ran off 2, 3, 2.

29. Jimmy Dykes - White Sox (1934-46), traveling salesman after that. Came in 3rd or above only 3 times in all his yrs.

[leecemark]

Bill, 7 of those guys are already in the Hall of Fame and a couple more are still active. Only Kid Gleason and Jimy Dykes from your list are eligible and not previously mentioned. Gleason I suppose is a fringely candidate, although managing the Black Sox is kind of a mixed blessing (at best) to have on your resume - and that was the "highlight" of his managerial career. Jimmy Dykes did manage a long time, but has very little to show for it. Maybe he just never had the horses, but you've got to win something to get alook.

[jalbright]

Other than the Negro Leaguers and active guys, the inclusion of Southworth and Williams leaves few worthy MLB choices IMO. I can see arguments for Mauch, Dressen, Richards, and Billy Martin, but that's about it. I like C I Taylor and Vic Harris, and might go for Warfield, but if you don't like Billy Martin's combative style, you'd hate Warfield. He could keep a team together for a few years, unlike Billy, but he was that kind of guy. I'd vote for Billy Martin, too, if that matters to anyone.

[Paul Wendt]

some managers not eligible

Here are some candidates from my Greatest Managers ballot, with the ineligible ones removed. Don't know if Anson, Chance, Clarke are ineligible since they are already enshrined as players. If so, I'll delete them.

They are ineligible because enshrined as players.
Anderson, Williams, Selee, and Southworth have been elected as managers.

For the purpose of the neighboring thread, Kid Gleason is ineligible because someone drafted him as a player. But he belongs in this thread.

Whitey Herzog is the most frequently mentioned in my experience, if I discount those who mention Gene Mauch with a curse.

Managers at baseball-reference with four major league career leader boards. Three of the categories favor the 162-game season.

[jalbright]

Yeah, I missed Herzog. Shame on me.

[RuthMayBond]

In order
Bobby Valentine
Billy Martin
Ralph Houk
Whitey Herzog
Dick Howser
Dave Garcia

[Chickazoola]

Maury Wills