SOC Comps

[leecemark]

--A group of us are conducting a project, the Suburbs of Cooperstown, to identify the best 200 players eligible for and not in the Hall of Fame. One of the sub-projects will be a simulation matching up the teams we draft. We've included quite a few players from the 1870s, 80s and early 90s who are not including in the simulation rogram we'll be using. We've also included a fair number of Negro Leaguers. This thread is intended to find the best "modern" MLB players to compar them to for the purposes of generating their sim profiles. You don't need to be interested in the sim (or the SOC project) to participate though. I hope this helps to provided a better picture of these players who numbers leave alot to the imagination.
--I am trying to find players similar in both style and quality, I am applying a small league quality adjustment in translating the early players to their modern comps. Generally the comparable modern player will run 10-20 OPS+ points lower. There is somewhat of a sliding scale involved though as I intend to be more generous to players drafted early and less so to those drafted later.
--My rough draft of the comps will be in post 2 of this thread. Feel free to make suggestions for alternative comparitive players or alterations to the listed comps. Thanks for your input!

[leecemark]

First round
Deacon White - a LH hitting Joe Torre with better defense
Second Round
John Beckwith - Ducky Medwick as a hitter with decent defense at 3B/1B and marginal defense at SS/2B
Dick Lundy - Pee Wee Reese
Paul Hines - Kirby Puckett with better longevity
Dobie Moore - Joe Cronin without the longevity
Third round
Quincy Trouppe - Ted Simmons
Charlie Bennett - Thurman Munson with better longevity
Bob Caruthers - Joe Wood
John Donaldson - Hippo Vaughn
Jack Glasscock - Davey Conception
Fourth Round
Dicky Pearce - Bobby Wallace
Hardy Richardson - Chuck Knoblauch
Firth Round
Hary Stovey - Dale Murphy without the CF skills
Tony Mullane - Don Newcombe with more Longevity
Cal McVey - Joe Torre with OF ability, but less longevity
George Gore - Earl Averill
Sixth Round
Ross Barnes - Larry Doyle with better defense
Charley Jones - George Foster
Joe Start - Fred McGriff
Seventh Round
Lip Pike - a LH Hack Wilson
Dave Orr - Hal Trosky
Ninth Round
Aljendro Ohms - Henie Manush with CF skills
Dick Redding - Urban Shocker
Grant Johnson - RH Joe Sewell at SS/2B instead of SS/3B
Eleventh Round
JImmy Ryan - Harold Baines with decent CF and good LF defense
Twelveth Round
Pete Browning - Babe Herman with marginal CF and really marginal 2B skills
Bus Clarkson - Bob Elliott with marginal SS instead of CF skills
Thirteenth Round
Jack Rowe - Manny Sanguillen with versatility
Fourteenth Round
Ezra Sutton - Sal Bando
Silver King - Bob Shawky
Oliver Marcelle - Willie Kamm
Nip Winters - LeftY Gomez
Fifthteen Round
Jim McCormick - Jack Quinn
Ted Radcliffe - Jimmy Wilson with marginal pitching skills
Ed Williamson - Matt Williams
Sixteenth Round
Bill Wright - Gee Walker with better defense
Mike Tiernan - Roger Maris
Dave Foutz - Earl Wilson with the ability to play 1B/OF
Seventeenth Round
Luke Easter - Dolph Camilli
Eighteenth Round
Bill Monroe - Del Pratt
Fred Dunlap - Del Pratt :noidea
Chino Smith - LH Al Simmons without longevity and less defensive skills

[jalbright]

Among the Negro Leaguers, I think I'd just extend Luke Easter's actual stats to much greater durability. You've bought my comps of Beckwith, Dobie Moore, Trouppe, Wild Bill Wright, and Oliver Marcelle. You've arguably upgraded Double Duty Radcliffe from Frankie Hayes to Jimmie Wilson, but I'm not inclined to argue that one.

You blanked out on two I gave comps for, Heinie Manush as a solid defensive CF for Alejandro Oms, and Lefty Gomez for Nip Winters.

I don't have a good comp for Monroe because of the dearth of data, and Pratt is a safe choice, especially given that you obviously don't want to overstate guys.

You upgraded John Donaldson from my comp of Hubert (Dutch) Leonard, and in going from a switch hitting Joe Sewell or Bobby Wallace to Pee Wee Reese for Dick Lundy.

I haven't given my comp for Chino Smith, but you're way, way low on that one IMO. More on that later--but while Medwick could hit, even at his best, he can't match Chino's peak. Not even terribly close, IMHO.

Urban Shocker, might be a better overall suggestion for Redding than the numbers based pick of Jack Quinn. I'll have to look at that one.

I think Fregosi for Home Run Johnson is sadly underestimating Johnson, given that I've used the comp of Luke Appling, though admittedly on sketchy evidence. However, I think Appling is at least as close as your choice. Maybe a compromise is in order here.

Ray Boone for Clarkson?? C'mon, Mark, you're killing me here. Boone didn't have 5000 AB--Clarkson projects for over 8000 PA. Dropping a guy by 20 points of OPS just because you think it's right is the wrong thing to do--and we agree in large measure on the others--so why screw Clarkson? If you've got to drop those OPS points, at least don't throw away the longevity issue--and that's where you're really screwing Clarkson with the Boone comp. Ray Boone didn't get any support in BBTF, nor did he deserve any. But I'll bet Bob Elliott, my comp, did. And the stats match up far, far better. There's plenty of good data on Bus, too--far better than we have for many Negro Leaguers.

I'll spell out all my Negro League comps in future posts, with the points of comparison I support the selection with.

[leecemark]

--I thought Boone for Clarkson would get you going. It probably is a little too low, although I am not at all enthused about Clarkson's case. I was trying to find a guy who could play SS/3B and was a prettty good hitter - but not too good. I doubt Clarkson had Elliot's power. Certainly if I was going to give him Elliott's bat I'd not look favorably on him as a defensive SS (of course you drafted him as a 3B so maybe that is not a big issue).
--I agree Chino Smith was likley a better hitter than Joe Medwick. If he'd been drafted higher I would have gone with Harry Heilmann with less longevity. Remember though I am inclined to go with lesser comps the later a player was drafted.
--I'll buy Manush with solid CF skills for Ohms. Lefty Gomez may be too high a comp for Nip Winters, although I admit I know little about him.
--I know little about Grant Johnson either. He was by all accounts a solid defensive IFer, although not a great one. A good to very good hitter. I'm not sure whether its a matter of me underrating Johnson or you underrating Fregosi though. Fregosi has avery good argument for best SS of the 1960s. With some credit for his work as a manager (although he was not exactly HoF material there) he is a reasonable candidate himself. As a comp for the 9th SS taken in our draft I think he is reasonable. I would have prefered someone a little more contemporary though. Deadball to deadball would have been my preference, but he was probably a better hitter than any deadball SS less Wagner (and Lloyd) - and not even close to Honus.

[jalbright]

At best, Clarkson is a mediocre SS--but, as you say, I didn't draft him for that. The big killer with Boone is the fact you vastly shortened the career. That's the place where you absolutely put the screws to him IMO. If Boone had 7500 AB, I might not like it, but I wouldn't feel like screaming. The difference between 7000+ AB and Boone's 4589 is absolutely HUGE--and I meant to yell.

If Clarkson didn't have darned good power, please explain why he could match Willard Brown, who didn't walk and thus was all power and average in OPS multiple seasons in which they played in the same league. Brown often was among the league leaders in homers. Granted, Clarkson picked up a lot of OPS points in walks, but he also had to make up ground in average. Please review the comparison of those two when they played in the same league. Clarkson is a hell of a lot better than you give him credit for.

[jalbright]

When it comes to Grant Johnson, he was a competitor for the guy with the best average among Negro Leaguers of his time. Combine that with the fact his longevity matches well with Appling and the fact Appling often competed for batting titles as a shortstop, that's why I go that way. Fregosi was quite good, but he wasn't a batting title guy, nor did he have the longevity. That's why I am convinced I'm at least as close as you are, if not closer.

[leecemark]

--Once you have enough longevity to not get rated as injury prone then additional longevity doesn't really get you anywhere. As far the impression it may leave on people though - well Ray Boone is not going to make anyone say "oh Clarkson WAS really great" I have to admit. I suppose I could live with Elliot as a comp if we are agreeing that Clarkson was not a particulary good SS.
--I have a pretty high opinion of Luke Appling and Johnson lasting so late in our draft tells me that our consensus opinion of him is not at that level. The nickname "Home Run" perhaps colored my mental picture of him mroe than it should. Maybe he could be the comp to Sewell (well except to being a RH hitter and SS/2B instead of a SS/3B)?

[jalbright]

A Ray Boone doesn't have much of an upside from his career marks because he didn't have much of a career beyond his 10 year "prime", while most players (like Elliott) are generally a little better (especially by comparison to a R. Boone) than their career numbers per 162 games. Add that to the discounts you've already imposed on Clarkson by using the Boone comparison, and perhaps then you can see why I considered that comparison a hosing. I won't argue Clarkson was anything more than a competent SS in his 20's, and that, as he aged, I wouldn't argue his glove wasn't better suited to 2B or, more likely, 3B.

I could buy Joe Sewell as the Grant Johnson comp. His upside is Appling, but Sewell is probably a more appropriate pick given what we do (and, in this case, don't) know about him.

[jjpm74]

I haven't given my comp for Chino Smith, but you're way, way low on that one IMO. More on that later--but while Medwick could hit, even at his best, he can't match Chino's peak. Not even terribly close, IMHO.

How about Bill Lange, Joe Sewell or Ralph Kiner (or a combination of the three)?

[jalbright]

How about Bill Lange, Joe Sewell or Ralph Kiner (or a combination of the three)?

Lange is borderline for the HOF in terms of his OPS+ despite the short career (123 OPS+). Also, Lange was a CF, Chino a corner OF. Joe Sewell is a shortstop who is so unlike the high average with power hitter Chino Smith was that I tend to think you must mean someone else. Ralph Kiner is too much uppercut and too much HR power, no speed to be a great comp--but at least you're more on track with that one. I'll give you what he looks like IMO as I get through the other comps. I'm thinking of going with two options, as the one single player comp is probably too high in the pantheon to get accepted. If I even want to get people to consider that name, though, I have to put down in as much detail as possible why I'm going that route--or I'll just get hooted down. The second choice is probably more palatable.

[jjpm74]

Lange is borderline for the HOF in terms of his OPS+ despite the short career (123 OPS+). Also, Lange was a CF, Chino a corner OF. Joe Sewell is a shortstop who is so unlike the high average with power hitter Chino Smith was that I tend to think you must mean someone else. Ralph Kiner is too much uppercut and too much HR power, no speed to be a great comp--but at least you're more on track with that one. I'll give you what he looks like IMO as I get through the other comps. I'm thinking of going with two options, as the one single player comp is probably too high in the pantheon to get accepted. If I even want to get people to consider that name, though, I have to put down in as much detail as possible why I'm going that route--or I'll just get hooted down. The second choice is probably more palatable.

The reason I listed Sewell was that I thought C. Smith almost never struck out (am I mistaken)? I don't think he'd be a good comp outside of that similarity.

[jjpm74]

On Foutz, the pitcher comp is good. As far as his fielding and batting, Foutz was considered a great fielder and a good hitter in his era. I can't really think of a suitable offensive comp for his 1B/OF experience, but think he's on par Steve Garvey defensively.

[jalbright]

OK, Chino Smith. Let's start with the data we have from Mac8 on the top line, convert it to per 162 on the second, and then use Bill McNeil's adjustments to make a MLB equivalent, and add in walks from the only source I have, an APBA set:

AB	H	2B	3B	HR	SB	
610	261	56	9	37	8	
549	235	50	8	33	7	BB
514	200	50	8	33	7	25

This works out to a .389 average, .417 OBP, and .710 slg. The walk rate is really low, but it seems Chino was up there hacking away--and with results like this, why not? Negro League power held rather steady or increased on going to the majors, probably at least in part because the Negro Leagues didn't try to keep fresh balls in play--that was an added expense they weren't willing to pay. Those balls probably weren't as resilient.

Anyway, these numbers put Smith in rarefied air. Even with the low walk total, there's just not a lot of guys putting up numbers like this in their 20's even in the 1920's and 30's. Further, there's just no way to compare him to anyone with that short a career. Since Chino died of malaria before he was 31, I decided to see what lefty hitters around that time could come close to matching Smith in their 20's. The two I came up with were Lou Gehrig and Chuck Klein. Gehrig may cause a gasp, but Lou in his 20s averaged .344 with a .444 OBP and .640 slg, and 35 HR in 162 games. That's more OBP and less slugging, but it comes close to balancing out. Another option would be Chuck Klein in his 20's, all but one season of which came in the Baker Bowl, where he was a monster. Chino didn't have anything like Klein's park advantage, but since I understand we're not dealing with that in our comps, it can work. Klein's line in his 20's was .352 avg, .408 obp, and .618 slugging with 36 HR in 162 games. Gehrig played in 10 years, but his first two yielded all of 38 AB, so they don't count for much. Klein had 7 years in his 20's, just like Smith. The best short career lefty is Lefty O'Doul in about as many years, but he didn't have the speed in his 30's Chino had in his Negro League career, and his slugging is even less impressive than the two I've mentioned at 349 / 420 / 533 with 19 HR per 162. O'Doul needs 15 HR to get up to the other two, and then he's a match for them.

Joe Medwick isn't as good a match because he's a righty, and even limiting him to his 20's, he's "only" a .332 / .375 / .542 with 21 HR per 162. That's good, but not up to Chino. Chino might be better understood by comparing him to Pujols today if Pujols career suddenly ended. They're different hitters (Pujols puts it into the seats more and walked a lot more, Smith had many more 2B and 3B and a much higher average)--but Chino had that kind of impact. Also, Pujols is a righty 1B while Chino was a much faster corner OF who hit lefty--but Pujols is a .332 / .420 / .620 guy in his first 7 seasons.

[jalbright]

The pitchers

My keys for pitchers are ERA+, handedness, years pitched, career IP, and W/L record.

John Donaldson

The best I could come up with here was his contemporary, Hubert (Dutch) Leonard, who did pitch a few more innings than the projection for Donaldson. Even so, I think it's a decent match.

pitcher…	hand	ERA+	IP	W	L	years
Donaldson	L	112	1915	126	100	13-21
H. Leonard	L	115	2192	139	113	13-25

Cannonball Dick Redding

He's not quite a perfect match for anyone, as he doesn't match up in IP and ERA+ well. He also was one of those pitchers who played out a very long string. He wasn't very good the last 8 years of his career, so his best is very much concentrated in 10 years, which supports the pick of Shocker. Make your own choice from these:

pitcher	hand	ERA+	IP	W	L	years
Redding	R	114	3556	230	177	11--28
Quinn	R	114	3920	247	218	09--33
Hoyt	R	111	3760	237	182	18-38
Shocker	R	124	2681	187	117	16-28

Nap Winters

Winters has been named the best Negro Leaguer of about three seasons by folks like John Holway, the ESPN encyclopedia gang, and Bill James. Lefty Gomez was the best pitcher in the AL a few times too. Neither lefty had a long career:

pitcher	hand	ERA+	IP	W	L	years
Winters	L	121	2140	142	98	21-33
Gomez	L	125	2503	189	102	30-43

[jalbright]

The outfielders and catchers

Keys for position players are handedness, defensive position(s), years played, AB/PA, OPS+ (sometimes available, often not), and avg / obp/ slg.

Wild Bill Wright

Wright's a CF, and while the two comps played the position some, neither could call it their primary position. Also, Wright switch-hit and neither of the proposed comps did. Perhaps a half-and-half comp?

player	hand	pos	AB	avg	obp	slg	years
Wright	B	CF	7282	296	347	419	32-51
Walker	R	OF	6771	294	331	430	31-45
Moses	L	OF	7356	291	364	416	35-51

Double Duty Radcliffe

You need two guys to cover Double Duty, as there's just no pitcher/catcher combo that's any good. For the catching side, here's what I come up with as a picture of Radcliffe's career hitting mark translated from Mac8, and two proposed comps:

player…...	hand	pos	avg	obp	slg	years
Radcliffe..	R	C	250	303	385	28-46
Hayes.....	R	C	259	343	400	33-47
Wilson.....	R	C	284	336	370	23-40

Quincy Trouppe

Trouppe's projection is missing four early years in his career when he played for a good independent team in Bismarck, ND, after he'd already shown he could play some in the Negro Leagues. If we had those years, he'd probably have more plate appearances but a lower OPS+. Given the lack of good switch hitting catchers, Ted Simmons seems a rather good match if we keep all that in mind:

player…...	hand	PA	avg	obp	slg	OPS+	pos
Trouppe..	B	8462	270	372	407	119	C/3B/OF
T. Simmons	B	9685	285	348	437	117	c/1B

Alejandro Oms

Oms could play a decent CF while Manush was a corner OF, but otherwise they're a decent match:

player	hand	pos	PA	avg	obp	slg	years
Oms……	L	CF	8056	333	393	466	21-37
Manush	L	OF	8416	330	377	479	23-39