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  • #31
    Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
    I believe emotions can affect the players, but rarely do to a statistically significant magnitude at the big league level. If you are a choker, you don't make it to the big leagues because you won't handle the pressure well at lower levels...
    Calvin Schiraldi says
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    • #32
      Calvin Shiraldi pitched very well in the first round of the 1986 playoffs...his manager was a complete retard and left him in the game way too long in game 6 of the WS...but if his performance overall in the 86 series was weak, it's probably because he just wasn't a very good pitcher. Outside of the 1986 regular season, Shiraldi was a complete bum...both before '86 and after.
      Last edited by SABR Matt; 06-24-2009, 10:58 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by The Commissioner View Post
        Too cool. That's a nice touch leaving the baseball.
        I wonder how common that is. Eddie Plank's grave in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania always has a couple of baseballs around it.

        Hoyt's manager, Miller Huggins is also buried at Spring Grove, one of the largest cemeteries in the country and a veritable who's who of Cincy notables.

        Is Hoyt's post-season performance the biggest reason he's in? If he were just decent on top of his overall career, would he have been voted in? Did his long-tenured broadcasting career have anything to do with it, too?
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        • #34
          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
          I wonder how common that is. Eddie Plank's grave in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania always has a couple of baseballs around it.
          I imagine it's fairly common.

          Hoyt's manager, Miller Huggins is also buried at Spring Grove, one of the largest cemeteries in the country and a veritable who's who of Cincy notables.
          if anyone missed it, I also have a video link on the Miller Huggins thread.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by dgarza View Post
            I imagine it's fairly common.


            if anyone missed it, I also have a video link on the Miller Huggins thread.
            Unfortunately, I'm not able to access the video. Not compatable with what I have. I plan on visiting Spring Grove myself, in the next few weeks.
            Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
            Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
            Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
            Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
            Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
              Unfortunately, I'm not able to access the video. Not compatable with what I have. I plan on visiting Spring Grove myself, in the next few weeks.
              I probably should have YouTube-ed them. Maybe I'll go back and do that as well.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
                Calvin Shiraldi pitched very well in the first round of the 1986 playoffs...his manager was a complete retard and left him in the game way too long in game 6 of the WS...but if his performance overall in the 86 series was weak, it's probably because he just wasn't a very good pitcher. Outside of the 1986 regular season, Shiraldi was a complete bum...both before '86 and after.
                All too true. I can literally remember where I was when I heard on the radio that the Sox and Cubs had pulled that trade. It was that mind boggling to me.
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                • #38
                  I always find it interesting to research bit players who rose to visibility in crucial moments to see how that moment fits into the transience of their careers.

                  When I watch classic ballgames, I like to go look up the guys I know little about and see how they fit into the tapestry of baseball history.

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                  • #39
                    The most interesting thing about Schiraldi and that season, at least in hindsight, is that he was with the Mets before being traded for Bob Ojeda, who played a pretty key role in that season for New York.

                    I've always been surprised that more Red Sox fans didn't accuse Schiraldi of being a double agent/plant
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                    • #40
                      Because it's the Hall of Fame, not Hall of Really Awesome Players.

                      Who cares about the Hall? Once they let the juicers in and Frank Thomas gets denied first ballot, they can close it down.
                      Go go White Sox

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Zoso View Post
                        Because it's the Hall of Fame, not Hall of Really Awesome Players.

                        Who cares about the Hall? Once they let the juicers in and Frank Thomas gets denied first ballot, they can close it down.
                        Have you seen the amount of threads in this forum? Who cares indeed?

                        Is there any realistic reason you think the above will happen? They haven't let juicers in by a longshot and there's zero reason to even think thomas won't get in first ballot.
                        Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                        Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                        Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                        Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                        Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                          They haven't let juicers in by a longshot and there's zero reason to even think thomas won't get in first ballot.
                          Unless he's just big 1950s Pittsburgh fan.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by SavoyBG View Post
                            The other poster was a little off, he actually had a 1.83 ERA in 83.2 WS innings.
                            Sorry to be pedantic here, but I stated, "...while hurling for the Yankees the guy had a 1.62 World Series ERA in 77 2/3 innings pitched." Overall, you are correct, though. He did have a 1.83 ERA in 83.2 IP. The other six innings came as member of the A's.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                              Is Hoyt's post-season performance the biggest reason he's in? If he were just decent on top of his overall career, would he have been voted in? Did his long-tenured broadcasting career have anything to do with it, too?
                              I'm sure that, unfortunately, that did play a role.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
                                The totals don't lie, Commish...these Giants teams didn't beat the Yankees primarily by clubbing the snot out of the baseball...the '21 line-up was basically 7 solid above average bats and one hole (plus the pitchers of course)...a good solid line-up but we're not talking about a juggernaut line-up...and those world series games went:

                                3-0 Yanks
                                3-0 Yanks
                                13-5 Giants, but 8 of those runs came in one horrible 8th inning melt-down primarily sparked by two of the Yankees' scrub pitchers
                                4-2 Giants
                                3-1 Yanks
                                8-5 Giants (they seemed to have their way with Shawkey)
                                2-1 Giants
                                1-0 Giants and the run was unearned

                                0, 0, 13*, 4, 1, 8, 2, 1...that's not a team winning games by outslugging the slugging Yankees.

                                You need to look at how these teams got the wins they did...the Giants were a defensively gifted squad...Kelly, Frisch and Bancroft comprised one of the best defensive infields in the game at that time.

                                That said, it's fair to say OPS+ misses some value since they were also an aggressive club on the bases and their OPS+ doesn't suggest they should have been scoring 840 runs...so they were perhaps more of an offensive club in '21 than I'm giving their credit for. But their high BA and even higher net OPS probably owes more to the hitter's haven they called home.

                                In '22 the same story applies...on the surface the offense looks impressive but adjust out the huge advantage their park gave them and they're an average (but well balanced) offense that manufactured runs on the basepaths.

                                They won that world series 3-2, 3-3 (T), 3-0, 4-3, and 5-3. That's a defensively gifted team beating an offensively gifted team. That's not a team that should scare Hoyt.
                                The problem is that you are counting how bad Hoyt made the Giants look as part of your evidence that they were a poor hitting ballclub. That's sort of double jeopardy. If you take Hoyt's three complete games out of the equation, the Giants averaged almost 5 1/2 runs per each of their other outings. Even looking at those five games in a more conservative light, their median run total was 4.

                                You are correct in pointing out how defensively gifted the Giants were, but you are definitely also giving short shrift to their offensive prowess.

                                First of all, you can't be suggesting that the Giants had the advantage of a "hitter's haven" that the Yankees didn't?

                                Secondly, I believe you may be letting your impressions of the overall careers of some of those players taint the view of how strong they were that year. In '21 the Giants had 5 players score 90+ runs, 3 with 100+ RBI, 2 players with slugging averages of .515+, 4 full-time players who batted .300+ (one more who batted .299 and two part-timers who were .320+) the leading home run hitter in the league, as well as the leaders in walks and stolen bases. One again, if you remove the freak that was Ruth from the equation, I don't see the Giants as being any less of a potent offensive force than the overwhelming majority of clubs either National or American League. Yes, one could argue that the Indians or Tigers were better run producers, but I'm not trying to prove that the Giants were the strongest hitting ballclub on the planet. I'm simply attempting to show that Hoyt didn't exactly have the smooth sailing by setting his mark against an inferior lineup as has been implied. The Giants were a gifted all-around team.

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