The Hard Goodbye: Taking one player out of the Hall

[1905 Giants]

If you could take one, and only one player out of the Hall, who would it be?

[Chickazoola]

Candy Cummings simply because he's there under dubious circumstances, namely he didn't invent the curveball.

If we extend it to non-players, Morgan Bulkeley was simply a club owner who got his name picked out of a hat(literally) to become the first NL president.

[steve rogers]

Just about any of the Frankie Frisch guys. I'd probably go with Bancroft.

I did a little project about 10 years ago about mistakes in the Hall of Fame. Who different experts thought were mistakes and who I thought didn't measure up. I lost most of what I had but I do have the composite lists of what guys like Bill James, James F Vail, and a few others thought were mistakes.

Bill James wrote the book Whatever Happened To The Hall Of Fame that I'm sure most of you have read and I wrote down all the people he thought were mistakes and all the borderline candidates. I updated the list when his Historical Abstract came out in 2000. He changed his mind on a few guys, Rizzuto most notably. Though he still considers him borderline, as do I.

James F. Vail wrote two books on the Hall of Fame; The Road To Cooperstown and Outrageous Fortune. They're both McFarland books which means they're ridiculously over priced, but I did enjoy them both.

I had a few other short articles from guys like Rob Neyer and I believe John Thorn but I can't find them. For those interested here's the composite list. All these guys were named on at least 2 different lists. The ones with an x are in my opinion the worst of the worst.

Roger Breshnahan
Frank Chance
Johnny Evers
Tom McCarthy x
Hack Wilson
Ray Schalk x
Jesse Haines x
Dave Bancroft x
Chick Hafey
Ross Youngs x
George Kelly x
Fred Lindstrom x
Rick Ferrell
Elmer Flick
Rube Marquard
Joe Tinker
Lloyd Waner
Mickey Welch
Ted Lyons
Addie Joss
Travis Jackson x

Scott

[jjpm74]

Ty Cobb or Rogers Hornsby.:cap:

[Edgartohof]

No One - I say once you are in, you are in. Whether someone else likes it or not.

[jjpm74]

No One - I say once you are in, you are in. Whether someone else likes it or not.

That pretty much sums up how I feel. It's great to debate things like how the best players not in the HOF stack up to the worst in the HOF but once one's in, they're in regardless of the circumstances that led to them getting there. Stripping a candidate of their HOF election is akin to taking away a World Series title because years later technology not present at the time proves that a play was called in error.

[Chadwick]

Quite possibly Rick Ferrell.

[THE OX]

........ For those interested here's the composite list. All these guys were named on at least 2 different lists. The ones with an x are in my opinion the worst of the worst.

.....Addie Joss......

Scott

Gotta disagree most strenuously with you on Joss! He presents a striking resemblance, IMO, to Sandy Koufax. A short career, over in his early 30s, but an absolutely brilliant one!

If you discount Koufax's first 4 or 5 seasons (1955-1960) when he was a seldom-used "bonus baby" and those spent apparently learning his craft, he only had about 6 truly "peak" seasons out of his 12 years in the majors.

Joss had a very short career, but almost all of it was truly brilliant (check out his career ERA!). This is one of those cases where, "If XXXX belongs, then YYYY definitely does!"

I think you've done him a disservice by including him in this list.

[steve rogers]

I think you've done him a disservice by including him in this list.

Well I'm sorry you came to that conclusion. Read what I wrote more carefully. The list I have there is made up of other people's opinions. Actually the players I listed were on at least 2 different lists. The people that made those lists are what I would consider experts on the subject, but I certainly don't agree with all of them. But they are what they are. If a player was named on more than one list I included them.

The players marked with an "x" are the ones that I feel are the worst selections, as you can see I didn't include Joss. I happen to agree with you. I was actually dissapointed by the inclusion of the Human Hairpin. I have no problem with Joss in the Hall of fame. The man does have the second lowest career ERA in history.

Scott

[Paul Wendt]

Dave Bancroft?

Why would anyone single out Bancroft? :noidea
He was a better than average batter in his prime and an excellent fielder, A or A+ in different opinions.

Everyone is more interested in Bill James's ratings and rankings than in mine
so here goes.

James credits* Bancroft with 269 win shares, essentially tied with Joe Sewell, Lou Boudreau, Dave Concepcion, Vern Stephens, and Herman Long. Below them in descending order are Hall of Fame shortstops Joe Tinker, Phil Rizzuto, Hugh Jennings, and Travis Jackson.

James ranks* Bancroft #28 behind Sewell #23 and ahead of Hall of Fame shortstops Joe Tinker, Monte Ward, Bobby Wallace, Rabbit Maranville, and Travis Jackson who are all #33-40.

* present tense in 2001-2002

I don't endorse all that,
but all that does make it remarkable to cite Bill James so favorably and single out Dave Bancroft as the worst of the worst.

[soberdennis]

No One - I say once you are in, you are in. Whether someone else likes it or not.

On this I am in complete agreement. I tend to believe the voters have more knowledge as to a person's credentials than I do. I might have my own opinion. But I defer to the decision of the voters on the final say. If a person has been elected, then we should not try to demean these voters' decision and accept it.

[Go get em Tigers]

If I could remove one person from the HOF...

If I could remove one person from the HOF, I wouldn't remove anybody. I would however ban Bud Selig for life, lest anybody in the future make the mistake of trying to get him in.

[digglahhh]

I had a few other short articles from guys like Rob Neyer and I believe John Thorn but I can't find them. For those interested here's the composite list. All these guys were named on at least 2 different lists. The ones with an x are in my opinion the worst of the worst.

Roger Breshnahan
Frank Chance
Johnny Evers
Tom McCarthy x
Hack Wilson
Ray Schalk x
Jesse Haines x
Dave Bancroft x
Chick Hafey
Ross Youngs x
George Kelly x
Fred Lindstrom x
Rick Ferrell
Elmer Flick
Rube Marquard
Joe Tinker
Lloyd Waner
Mickey Welch
Ted Lyons
Addie Joss
Travis Jackson x

Scott

A year or two ago, we did a "Hall of Mistakes Project" in which we voted to remove a percentage of the HOF and replace them with more deserving, unelected players.

I stopped submitting ballots midway through simply because I ran out of guys who I truly felt were very deserving. One of the most interesting things about the project was that it really established that I think there are more guys in who should be out than guys out who should be in. I never bothered to compare those lists of mine before that. It was a little counterintuitive to realize that I attributed more error on the side of inclusion than exclusion because I don't consider myself a small-Hall guy.

[steve rogers]

Why would anyone single out Bancroft? :noidea
He was a better than average batter in his prime and an excellent fielder, A or A+ in different opinions.

Everyone is more interested in Bill James's ratings and rankings than in mine
so here goes.

James credits* Bancroft with 269 win shares, essentially tied with Joe Sewell, Lou Boudreau, Dave Concepcion, Vern Stephens, and Herman Long. Below them in descending order are Hall of Fame shortstops Joe Tinker, Phil Rizzuto, Hugh Jennings, and Travis Jackson.

James ranks* Bancroft #28 behind Sewell #23 and ahead of Hall of Fame shortstops Joe Tinker, Monte Ward, Bobby Wallace, Rabbit Maranville, and Travis Jackson who are all #33-40.

* present tense in 2001-2002

I don't endorse all that,
but all that does make it remarkable to cite Bill James so favorably and single out Dave Bancroft as the worst of the worst.

Let me just say one last time that the list I made was a composite list from other people. I did that list 10+ years ago and only made corrections to James' list when he actually mentioned the Hall of Fame in his New Historical Abstract. I didn't compare the list to his new win shares ratings, maybe James changed his mind on Bancroft being in the hall, I have no idea. The guys I singled out as the "worst of the worst" were my opinion added to the list. And as for the players you mentioned as ranking lower than Bancroft in his win shares rankings. James mentioned Tinker, Wallace, Jennings, Rizzuto and Jackson as mistakes. His list of mistakes was over 25 players long, but like I said before the list above is a composite of players mentioned on more than 1 list.

Bill James is not the only person that I used to make up the list. I also used 2 books by James F. Vail, and articles from Rob Neyer, John Thorn and 4 or 5 other writers. It was just a fun little project I did 10 years ago for my own personal enjoyment. If you don't like the list I made complain to them. As for my selection of Bancroft, to be perfectly honest I think I was wrong to pick Bancroft as the worst. I almost said George Kelly and I should have said Kelly. I still think Bancroft is a mistake, but after some more thought I don't think he's the worst.

I'm with Digglahhh, I'm not a small hall guy. (I'm going to look for that Hall of Mistakes thread) I'd like to see more players in the hall, but I feel that the players I marked with an "x" really lower the standards of the hall of fame. I wouldn't take any of them out now, but I think their elections are mistakes.

Scott

[Freakshow]

A year or two ago, we did a "Hall of Mistakes Project" in which we voted to remove a percentage of the HOF and replace them with more deserving, unelected players.

I stopped submitting ballots midway through simply because I ran out of guys who I truly felt were very deserving. One of the most interesting things about the project was that it really established that I think there are more guys in who should be out than guys out who should be in. I never bothered to compare those lists of mine before that. It was a little counterintuitive to realize that I attributed more error on the side of inclusion than exclusion because I don't consider myself a small-Hall guy.

The Hall of Mistakes/Corrections Recap
The lists were compiled gradually with a series of polls over many months' time.