is 500HRs still 500Hrs??

[unfinished_business]

when reading some of the Hall of fame threads i begin to wonder if the BBWAA will exclude a 500HR-guy from the Hall.

There are a lot of Guys who recently cracked the mark (Griffey / Sosa / Palmeiro) or could crack the mark in the near future (A-Rod / Sheffield / Thome / Bagwell [assuming he will play]/ Thomas / Ramirez maybe even Delgado).

Of course A-Rod and Griffey are locks. The others are up for Discussion.

This makes the 500HR-Club not as exclusive as it once was. So would you leave Jim Thome or Delgado or whomever out of Cooperstown even if they would have 500HRs?

Back in the Day the 500HR mark was the Ticket for Cooperstown for Sluggers. (Just like 3000 Hits is the mark for Hitters).

But with the Smaller Ballparks, the Juiced Foreheads and the juiced Baseballs it does not feel like THEE MARK anymore.

[Mike D.]

Short answer is that it is until it isn't. Until we have a hitter with 500 home runs NOT get elected, then it's still a magic number.

Could it happen soon? I guess the hypocrite writers could theoretically keep out one of the McGwire/Palmeiro/Sosa group, I but I think it's unlikely.

Manny Ramirez is a lock for the HOF even if he doesn't get 500 HR, which he probably will. Thomas and Bagwell have got to be longshots for 500 HR's at this point, but are probably both in regardless.

The other guys, if they reach 500 HR's, could be interesting. Sheffield is a jerk (by most accounts) and a steroid user (to what extent, we don't know), but he also put up .297/.399/.527 rate stats to date. 500 HR's would probably get him in.

Delgado and Thome are a ways off from 500 HR yet, I guess it'd depend how they got them. A bunch of excellent/very good seasons to put them well over 500 would probably get them in. If they hung around past the "sell by" date on their abilities and eek right over the 500 HR line, they probably would not get in.

[Tigerfan1974]

I remember when 400 use to be THE mark.
Not it seems to be 500.

I think 500 has been cheapened a bit by those who have used PEDs.
I think maybe 600 needs to be the new benchmark.
Only 4 have ever reached it, 3 legitimately. (Sorry, Barry!)

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Short answer is that it is until it isn't. Until we have a hitter with 500 home runs NOT get elected, then it's still a magic number.

Could it happen soon? I guess the hypocrite writers could theoretically keep out one of the McGwire/Palmeiro/Sosa group, I but I think it's unlikely.

Manny Ramirez is a lock for the HOF even if he doesn't get 500 HR, which he probably will. Thomas and Bagwell have got to be longshots for 500 HR's at this point, but are probably both in regardless.

The other guys, if they reach 500 HR's, could be interesting. Sheffield is a jerk (by most accounts) and a steroid user (to what extent, we don't know), but he also put up .297/.399/.527 rate stats to date. 500 HR's would probably get him in.

Delgado and Thome are a ways off from 500 HR yet, I guess it'd depend how they got them. A bunch of excellent/very good seasons to put them well over 500 would probably get them in. If they hung around past the "sell by" date on their abilities and eek right over the 500 HR line, they probably would not get in.

Thome has 430 HRs and is only 35 years old. If he plays four more seaosns he only needs 18 per season. He has a good shot at 500 HRs.

[BoweryBoys]

500 HR Club

But with the Smaller Ballparks, the Juiced Foreheads and the juiced Baseballs it does not feel like THEE MARK anymore.[/QUOTE]

You kind of hit the nail on the head there as to why 500 HRS doesn't seem like such a bench mark of performance any more. It is a shame that MLB, in a deliberate attempt to increase offensive production as "chicks dig the long ball", have tinkered with such a great game, at least in terms of juiced balls and certain ball parks etc. It is also a shame that certain players (MAY) have decided to use PEDs in order to inflate and even higher place in the history of the game.

However, to some extent there are other reasons for an increase in 500, or possible 500, HR hitters increasing the HOF bar. More HR hitters around today due to stronger players through weights and nutrition, less smokers and drinkers etc. Better travel conditions on road trips allowing for more rest time on the road then the days of train travel. Expansion almost doubling the size of MLB resulting in many pitchers who would have never made it out of AA in thre old days. There are many factors, natural, unnatural and evolutionary that help make 500 HRs more common place but certainly no less impressive a feat.

However, as for "hypocrite" writers. the last I saw Palmiero tested positive after telling Congress he didn't use and McGwire acted like a jerk before Congress. If BBWA has every right to keep Rose out then they have every right to vote how they believe about possible PED use and there is nothing "hypocrtical" out of leaving someone out of the hall if he may have used. The writers have evey right to vote as they see fit. So why should 500 be an automatic lock to the HOF. I wonder, would Mark McGwire be anywhere near a HOF candidate if not for HRs and RBI.

[BoSox Rule]

I hope 500 is still 500.

[Dontworry]

" However, as for "hypocrite" writers. the last I saw Palmiero tested positive after telling Congress he didn't use and McGwire acted like a jerk before Congress. If BBWA has every right to keep Rose out then they have every right to vote how they believe about possible PED use and there is nothing "hypocrtical" out of leaving someone out of the hall if he may have used. "

Right now Rose can't get in the HOF without having his ban lifted by MLB. That's the difference between him and Mcgwire.

[unfinished_business]

I wonder, would Mark McGwire be anywhere near a HOF candidate if not for HRs and RBI.

This might be a thread of its own but regarding to McGwire I FEEL BETRAYED!

Yesterday on MLB.com's Baseball's Best, i watched the game where he broke Roger Maris' Record and you saw all the people celebrating, the hugs, the interviews, Sammy Sosa etc. (He highfived with the Cubs' Infielders during the HomerunTrot)
But now I know WE ALL KNOW that McGwire was juiced up. He would have never been able to reach that plateau (not only of PowerHitting but of worldwide recognition and admiration) if it wasn't for the PED.
McGwire hurt me much more than Bonds because BigMac was beloved by all of Baseball. But he cheated us and himself.

[Mike D.]

Thome has 430 HRs and is only 35 years old. If he plays four more seaosns he only needs 18 per season. He has a good shot at 500 HRs.

And with his knee injuries, you think he's a lock to play until he's 39? Sure, he could do 3 years of 24 HR, but my point remains...if he barely gets 500, he might not make it. If he goes out and has 3 30-40 HR seasons and finishes with 525-550, he stands a better chance.

[Mike D.]

However, as for "hypocrite" writers. the last I saw Palmiero tested positive after telling Congress he didn't use and McGwire acted like a jerk before Congress. If BBWA has every right to keep Rose out then they have every right to vote how they believe about possible PED use and there is nothing "hypocrtical" out of leaving someone out of the hall if he may have used. The writers have evey right to vote as they see fit. So why should 500 be an automatic lock to the HOF. I wonder, would Mark McGwire be anywhere near a HOF candidate if not for HRs and RBI.

Raffy tested positive at some point in his LAST season, but not before that. McGwire never tested positive and people seem to think that his testimony to Congress someone makes him guilty.

What I mean by hypoctrite sportswriters is this - IF these guys were using, and MLB had their head in the sand, the writer's all had to know too, or at least they should have done a little jounalistic due dillegence.

Where were all outrage from the writers from 1988-2002 that suddenly appeared in 2003-2006? These guys all went along for the ride, and suddenly they think they can play high and mighty and decide without evidence who's guity and who's innocent. The key word you used was "may"...what gives the writer's the right to keep someone out on a suspicion or a assumption of guilt?

Personally, I think that's lame.

Oh, and nobody talks about the fact that an awful lot of pitchers were probably on roids...maybe more pitchers than hitters...doesn't that make hitting 500 home runs HARDER?

[BoweryBoys]

HOF Voting

"Right now Rose can't get in the HOF without having his ban lifted by MLB. That's the difference between him and Mcgwire."

That is technically correct true but my point is that it is the writers who do the HOF voting. They have every right to keep any modern player out of the HOF that they may choose to if enough of them feel they have good reason to, such as good reason to believe stats were inflated by PED use. Many fans may not like it but that is the way it is. The writers vote, not the fans, and they have every right to vote how they want. If the majority of writers decide not to vote for a Palmeiro or McGwire I see nothing hypocrtical in that at all. The writers are not the ones using PEDs and not the ones making millions of dollars. Nor are they the ones who claimed to be "clean" and then were then outed by a drug test. Sure people are only human but I'm willing to bet that if one studied hard enough they would find more hypocrits and flawed characters among MLB players then writers, team owners, regular team employees etc, player hero worship notwithstanding.

[BoweryBoys]

More Hard Fastballs means More HRs Hit.

"...what gives the writer's the right to keep someone out on a suspicion or a assumption of guilt?"

Everything, they are the ones who do the voting. Who goes into the HOF and who doesn't is always up to their whim for any number of reasons. Is it likely to keep Palmeiro out because of the positive test?- no. Do they have all rights to do so?- yes. Is it hypocritical beause they suspected it and may have covered it up?- no because they were not the ones playing and using and now denying and saying it shouldn't matter anyway so vote me in.

Is McGwire's behavior before Congress enough evidence that he used? -of course not. It is it enough reason to lose great respect for him?- definately. Will the writers keep him out?- who knows?, doubt but they certainly have every right to do so if enough of them don't want him in and there is noth8ng hypocritical about that. McGwire chose to be a Donkey before Congress, the writers didn't tell him to.


"Oh, and nobody talks about the fact that an awful lot of pitchers were probably on roids...maybe more pitchers than hitters...doesn't that make hitting 500 home runs HARDER?"

I don't know that would make hitting HRs harder- probably easier for more players to hit more and farther HRs. If a pitcher is using roids he would do so to add more power and speed on his fast ball. This type of power pitcher mentality is of course going to add up to more fast balls and more guys burning them in more often. There is nothing a power hitting slugger likes better then a lot of good fast balls to hit. Simple law of physics means that if bat hits with full power a very fast hard pitch, that ball it is going to travel a very long way in the opposite direction.

[KCGHOST]

It will remain the mark until someone reaches it and doesn't get. It will be at least 15 years before we know if the BBWAA elctorate decides not to elect McGwire. The next guys (Sosa/Palmeiro) are at least 20 years away from exhausting their HoF voting eligibility. Even then there's no telling what the VC voting will do.

[Williamsburg2599]

500 is still 500, its just alot easier to get there

[jpenrod]

Raffy tested positive at some point in his LAST season, but not before that. McGwire never tested positive and people seem to think that his testimony to Congress someone makes him guilty.

Baseball first full season of testing was last year, it is kind of difficult to test positive when no tests are conducted. If Raffy did not start using until last year when thy start testing he is just plain stupid. Also Rafy was considered by many as a borderling line hall of famer until LAST year when he got 3000 hits. The fact that het tested positive for PED's within a week of the milestone that seemed to insure his place in cooperstown is enough reason to question before that.

Again because they did not really start testing until last year , McGwire never tested for PED's. The fact that McGwire admitted to using Andro (which at the time was not banned by MLB) in his record breaking season is enough for me to question whether he belongs in the Hall. While his attitude beffore congresss did not admit guilt, it did nothing to put anyones mind at ease about his use. I personally do not believe McGwire is HOFer without his power and I seriously question his power.

from the HALL OF FAME Rules for Election:

5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

Do the sports writers have every right to keep a player out of the Hall of Fame despite there stats? Rule 5 seems to indicate they do, and personally I agree with it. The Hall of Fame is a sacred thing in baseball and to turn you back on everything a pllayer did simply because they hit 500 HR, 3000 hits, or got 300 wins is lowering the standards of the Hall.