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  • Originally posted by Chadwick View Post
    How would you rank the following Hall of Fame candidates?

    Mark Buehrle
    Tim Hudson
    Andy Pettitte
    CC Sabathia
    CC
    Pettitte
    Hudson
    Buehrle

    But I have the bottom 3 all between 81-88 and I could be convinced they belong in any order.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

      CC
      Pettitte
      Hudson
      Buehrle

      But I have the bottom 3 all between 81-88 and I could be convinced they belong in any order.
      That's the order I have them in, too. I don't know exactly what rank each is, but it's that order. I can say that I see each of them as a top 100 pitcher all-time and that I think anyone in the top 100 pitchers after 149 seasons belongs in Cooperstown.
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

        CC
        Pettitte
        Hudson
        Buehrle

        But I have the bottom 3 all between 81-88 and I could be convinced they belong in any order.
        I have:

        CC
        Hudson
        Pettitte
        Buehrle

        Pettitte consistently trails Hudson in most rate/value stats. By rate/value/win probability, Hudson and CC are very similar, while Pettitte is a notch below and Buehrle another notch down.

        Comment


        • My heart tells me Hudson > Sabathia from the '3 Aces' A's days but I think C.C. is certainly ahead. I'd have Buehrle ahead of Pettitte.
          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

          Comment


          • The problem is what in his career stands out. He does have 3 top 5 CY finishes and that looks good until you realize that is 3 in 17 years. He won 20 games one year but his ERA was 4.14 and the year he won 18 games his ERA was 3.37. So he has some good things going for him but when you look closer they are not as great as they seem.

            Comment


            • Sabathia
              Hudson
              Pettite
              Beuhrle

              Sabathia was the best of the group due to not only having longevity, but a nice peak as well. From 2007-2011 he was95-40 with a 142 ERA+ and 240 IP per season. He also had several more good years outside his peak, though his 2013-2015 stretch is very problematic. He comes across as an underachiever: a guy who should have breezed past 300 wins and should have gotten more strikeouts due to his immense size.

              Hudson also seems like somewhat of an underachiever, an ace in his early days but never really put it all together. He was over .500 every season until his very last two seasons. Reminds me of Mike Mussina with a shorter career.

              Pettite has overall numbers similar to Sabathia, but never really came across as an 'ace'. A ton of pretty good seasons, but only two or three standout ones. The PED issue further muddies his waters.

              Buehrle is another guy who never came across as an ace, and never had a 'peak' to speak of.. He was a reliable 200 IP guy who never missed time. He amazingly was only under .500 one time (12-13 in 2006) but he was usually AROUND .500.

              None of these guys are HOFers to me.
              Last edited by willshad; 08-17-2019, 02:24 AM.

              Comment


              • From Jay Jaffes 2021 HOF ballot series:

                https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and...ot-tim-hudson/

                Even if we don't agree with his methodologies, he writes a fine recap of a players career.

                If he doesn't make it, I hope Huddy last 10 years on the ballot and has a chance to be elected by the VC in his lifetime, grey area but good enough for me HOF type guy.
                Jacquelyn Eva Marchand (1983-2017)
                http://www.tezakfuneralhome.com/noti...uelyn-Marchand

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
                  From Jay Jaffes 2021 HOF ballot series:

                  https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and...ot-tim-hudson/

                  Even if we don't agree with his methodologies, he writes a fine recap of a players career.

                  If he doesn't make it, I hope Huddy last 10 years on the ballot and has a chance to be elected by the VC in his lifetime, grey area but good enough for me HOF type guy.
                  My sentiments pretty much exactly.
                  They don’t think it be like it is, but it do.

                  Comment


                  • Tim Hudson did not make the cut on his 2nd year on the BBWAA ballot. His results were:

                    2021 5.2%
                    2022 3.0%

                    What do we think are his future chances with the Era/Today's Game Committee??

                    In the meantime, found this 2001 A's-Yankees playoff duel between Huddy and Andy Pettitte on YT:
                    2001 MLB ALDS Game 2 Oakland @ NY Yankees - YouTube
                    A's would take the game, but Yanks would come back to win the series.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by willshad View Post
                      Sabathia
                      Hudson
                      Pettite
                      Beuhrle

                      Sabathia was the best of the group due to not only having longevity, but a nice peak as well. From 2007-2011 he was95-40 with a 142 ERA+ and 240 IP per season. He also had several more good years outside his peak, though his 2013-2015 stretch is very problematic. He comes across as an underachiever: a guy who should have breezed past 300 wins and should have gotten more strikeouts due to his immense size.

                      Hudson also seems like somewhat of an underachiever, an ace in his early days but never really put it all together. He was over .500 every season until his very last two seasons. Reminds me of Mike Mussina with a shorter career.

                      Pettite has overall numbers similar to Sabathia, but never really came across as an 'ace'. A ton of pretty good seasons, but only two or three standout ones. The PED issue further muddies his waters.

                      Buehrle is another guy who never came across as an ace, and never had a 'peak' to speak of.. He was a reliable 200 IP guy who never missed time. He amazingly was only under .500 one time (12-13 in 2006) but he was usually AROUND .500.

                      None of these guys are HOFers to me.
                      Sabathia an underachiever? I have no doubt he could have thrown more innings and CG too but he wasn't allowed. Pretty sure he finished like 10 games in half a season with Milwaukee. Hudson never put it all together? Buehrle never came across as an ace? I watched the White Sox a ton on WGN until like 2011 and Buehrle was most definitely an ace. If we want to talk pitchers under achieving due to being neutered by management and thus depriving them and us of their full greatness lets talk about Strasburg, deGrom and that generation.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                        Sabathia an underachiever? I have no doubt he could have thrown more innings and CG too but he wasn't allowed. Pretty sure he finished like 10 games in half a season with Milwaukee. Hudson never put it all together? Buehrle never came across as an ace? I watched the White Sox a ton on WGN until like 2011 and Buehrle was most definitely an ace. If we want to talk pitchers under achieving due to being neutered by management and thus depriving them and us of their full greatness lets talk about Strasburg, deGrom and that generation.
                        and
                        It's a matter of perspective. Sure, Sabathia, Hudson, and Buehrle had great careers compared to 99% of major leaguers...but we are talking about the HOF level here. Sabathia was an undercahiever in the sense that he had 205 wins through age 32 and didn't come close to 300. Hudson never won a CY award, won 20 games once (with a 4.14 ERA), and had consistent 16-10 3.20 type of seasons. Buehrle was a lesser version of Hudson, being consistently good but never really great.

                        Comment


                        • Underachivers don't end up with 3000+ strike outs
                          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by willshad View Post
                            and
                            It's a matter of perspective. Sure, Sabathia, Hudson, and Buehrle had great careers compared to 99% of major leaguers...but we are talking about the HOF level here. Sabathia was an undercahiever in the sense that he had 205 wins through age 32 and didn't come close to 300. Hudson never won a CY award, won 20 games once (with a 4.14 ERA), and had consistent 16-10 3.20 type of seasons. Buehrle was a lesser version of Hudson, being consistently good but never really great.
                            Right I understand that you think (particularly) Hudson and Buehrle underachieved but they were aces for perennial pennants contenders. Buehrle was drafted in the 38th round and became the ace for the White Sox first pennant winner since 1917, instrumental in their postseason success, a face of the club and one of the best pitchers in team history. Guess you saw something else watching all those starts on WGN. Not an ace? Underwhelming
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

                              Right I understand that you think (particularly) Hudson and Buehrle underachieved but they were aces for perennial pennants contenders. Buehrle was drafted in the 38th round and became the ace for the White Sox first pennant winner since 1917, instrumental in their postseason success, a face of the club and one of the best pitchers in team history. Guess you saw something else watching all those starts on WGN. Not an ace? Underwhelming
                              Being the best pitcher on a team doesn't necessarily mean that someone is an 'ace' type of pitcher. Eddie Lopat was probably the best pitcher on great Yankee teams in the 1940s and 1950s, but was he really an 'ace' type of guy? Likewise Andy Pettite. Buehrle had exactly three seasons in his career with under a 3.50 ERA (never better than 3.12), and twice had an ERA+ better than 130, with his best at 144. This is not indicative of a HOF pitcher, nor of a true 'ace'. More like a solid number 2 guy with a couple of really good seasons, who may make the HOF if he has a lot of longevity.
                              Last edited by willshad; 06-04-2022, 08:49 AM.

                              Comment


                              • All but Buehrle are BORDERLINE HOFers in my book.

                                Hudson, like Sabathia, are in an area where some are in and some are not. They are, career-wise, a little better than Billy Pierce, who is borderline. How much better than Billy Pierce do you have to be in order to be a clear-cut HOFer?
                                "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                                NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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