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  • Los Bravos
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    Sabathia has 3000+ strikeouts. His exclusion would be unprecedented outside PED users.
    It really seems at times that his reaching that milestone went past a lot of people here.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
    All but Buehrle are BORDERLINE HOFers in my book.

    Hudson, like Sabathia, are in an area where some are in and some are not. They are, career-wise, a little better than Billy Pierce, who is borderline. How much better than Billy Pierce do you have to be in order to be a clear-cut HOFer?
    Sabathia has 3000+ strikeouts. His exclusion would be unprecedented outside PED users.

    Originally posted by willshad View Post

    Being the best pitcher on a team doesn't necessarily mean that someone is an 'ace' type of pitcher. Eddie Lopat was probably the best pitcher on great Yankee teams in the 1940s and 1950s, but was he really an 'ace' type of guy? Likewise Andy Pettite. Buehrle had exactly three seasons in his career with under a 3.50 ERA (never better than 3.12), and twice had an ERA+ better than 130, with his best at 144. This is not indicative of a HOF pitcher, nor of a true 'ace'. More like a solid number 2 guy with a couple of really good seasons, who may make the HOF if he has a lot of longevity.
    Are you using ace synonymous with hall of famer Will? A solid number 2 guy who was the Home pitcher for 11 years during the White Sox most successful run since the 1950s or deadball era. Not an ace? I get your point even though I don't think Lopat's 4 full years on the Yankees are a fair comparison with Buehrle spending nearly 3x that with Chicago. We're probably both just using 'ace' referring to differing levels of exclusivity like you alluded to earlier.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jerrybe...h=57b77df456b0

    Is Ex-Chicago White Sox Ace Mark Buehrle A Hall Of Famer? It’s More Debatable Than You Might Believe

    Jerry Beach
    Contributor
    I’ve covered the Mets for a variety of outlets since 1997.
    Last edited by bluesky5; 06-04-2022, 04:31 PM.

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  • Fuzzy Bear
    replied
    All but Buehrle are BORDERLINE HOFers in my book.

    Hudson, like Sabathia, are in an area where some are in and some are not. They are, career-wise, a little better than Billy Pierce, who is borderline. How much better than Billy Pierce do you have to be in order to be a clear-cut HOFer?

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    Right I understand that you think (particularly) Hudson and Buehrle underachieved but they were aces for perennial pennants contenders. Buehrle was drafted in the 38th round and became the ace for the White Sox first pennant winner since 1917, instrumental in their postseason success, a face of the club and one of the best pitchers in team history. Guess you saw something else watching all those starts on WGN. Not an ace? Underwhelming
    Being the best pitcher on a team doesn't necessarily mean that someone is an 'ace' type of pitcher. Eddie Lopat was probably the best pitcher on great Yankee teams in the 1940s and 1950s, but was he really an 'ace' type of guy? Likewise Andy Pettite. Buehrle had exactly three seasons in his career with under a 3.50 ERA (never better than 3.12), and twice had an ERA+ better than 130, with his best at 144. This is not indicative of a HOF pitcher, nor of a true 'ace'. More like a solid number 2 guy with a couple of really good seasons, who may make the HOF if he has a lot of longevity.
    Last edited by willshad; 06-04-2022, 08:49 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    and
    It's a matter of perspective. Sure, Sabathia, Hudson, and Buehrle had great careers compared to 99% of major leaguers...but we are talking about the HOF level here. Sabathia was an undercahiever in the sense that he had 205 wins through age 32 and didn't come close to 300. Hudson never won a CY award, won 20 games once (with a 4.14 ERA), and had consistent 16-10 3.20 type of seasons. Buehrle was a lesser version of Hudson, being consistently good but never really great.
    Right I understand that you think (particularly) Hudson and Buehrle underachieved but they were aces for perennial pennants contenders. Buehrle was drafted in the 38th round and became the ace for the White Sox first pennant winner since 1917, instrumental in their postseason success, a face of the club and one of the best pitchers in team history. Guess you saw something else watching all those starts on WGN. Not an ace? Underwhelming

    Leave a comment:


  • Los Bravos
    replied
    Underachivers don't end up with 3000+ strike outs

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post

    Sabathia an underachiever? I have no doubt he could have thrown more innings and CG too but he wasn't allowed. Pretty sure he finished like 10 games in half a season with Milwaukee. Hudson never put it all together? Buehrle never came across as an ace? I watched the White Sox a ton on WGN until like 2011 and Buehrle was most definitely an ace. If we want to talk pitchers under achieving due to being neutered by management and thus depriving them and us of their full greatness lets talk about Strasburg, deGrom and that generation.
    and
    It's a matter of perspective. Sure, Sabathia, Hudson, and Buehrle had great careers compared to 99% of major leaguers...but we are talking about the HOF level here. Sabathia was an undercahiever in the sense that he had 205 wins through age 32 and didn't come close to 300. Hudson never won a CY award, won 20 games once (with a 4.14 ERA), and had consistent 16-10 3.20 type of seasons. Buehrle was a lesser version of Hudson, being consistently good but never really great.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    Sabathia
    Hudson
    Pettite
    Beuhrle

    Sabathia was the best of the group due to not only having longevity, but a nice peak as well. From 2007-2011 he was95-40 with a 142 ERA+ and 240 IP per season. He also had several more good years outside his peak, though his 2013-2015 stretch is very problematic. He comes across as an underachiever: a guy who should have breezed past 300 wins and should have gotten more strikeouts due to his immense size.

    Hudson also seems like somewhat of an underachiever, an ace in his early days but never really put it all together. He was over .500 every season until his very last two seasons. Reminds me of Mike Mussina with a shorter career.

    Pettite has overall numbers similar to Sabathia, but never really came across as an 'ace'. A ton of pretty good seasons, but only two or three standout ones. The PED issue further muddies his waters.

    Buehrle is another guy who never came across as an ace, and never had a 'peak' to speak of.. He was a reliable 200 IP guy who never missed time. He amazingly was only under .500 one time (12-13 in 2006) but he was usually AROUND .500.

    None of these guys are HOFers to me.
    Sabathia an underachiever? I have no doubt he could have thrown more innings and CG too but he wasn't allowed. Pretty sure he finished like 10 games in half a season with Milwaukee. Hudson never put it all together? Buehrle never came across as an ace? I watched the White Sox a ton on WGN until like 2011 and Buehrle was most definitely an ace. If we want to talk pitchers under achieving due to being neutered by management and thus depriving them and us of their full greatness lets talk about Strasburg, deGrom and that generation.

    Leave a comment:


  • blacknwhiterose
    replied
    Tim Hudson did not make the cut on his 2nd year on the BBWAA ballot. His results were:

    2021 5.2%
    2022 3.0%

    What do we think are his future chances with the Era/Today's Game Committee??

    In the meantime, found this 2001 A's-Yankees playoff duel between Huddy and Andy Pettitte on YT:
    2001 MLB ALDS Game 2 Oakland @ NY Yankees - YouTube
    A's would take the game, but Yanks would come back to win the series.

    Leave a comment:


  • pedrosrotatorcuff
    replied
    Originally posted by Jar of Flies View Post
    From Jay Jaffes 2021 HOF ballot series:

    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and...ot-tim-hudson/

    Even if we don't agree with his methodologies, he writes a fine recap of a players career.

    If he doesn't make it, I hope Huddy last 10 years on the ballot and has a chance to be elected by the VC in his lifetime, grey area but good enough for me HOF type guy.
    My sentiments pretty much exactly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jar of Flies
    replied
    From Jay Jaffes 2021 HOF ballot series:

    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and...ot-tim-hudson/

    Even if we don't agree with his methodologies, he writes a fine recap of a players career.

    If he doesn't make it, I hope Huddy last 10 years on the ballot and has a chance to be elected by the VC in his lifetime, grey area but good enough for me HOF type guy.

    Leave a comment:


  • willshad
    replied
    Sabathia
    Hudson
    Pettite
    Beuhrle

    Sabathia was the best of the group due to not only having longevity, but a nice peak as well. From 2007-2011 he was95-40 with a 142 ERA+ and 240 IP per season. He also had several more good years outside his peak, though his 2013-2015 stretch is very problematic. He comes across as an underachiever: a guy who should have breezed past 300 wins and should have gotten more strikeouts due to his immense size.

    Hudson also seems like somewhat of an underachiever, an ace in his early days but never really put it all together. He was over .500 every season until his very last two seasons. Reminds me of Mike Mussina with a shorter career.

    Pettite has overall numbers similar to Sabathia, but never really came across as an 'ace'. A ton of pretty good seasons, but only two or three standout ones. The PED issue further muddies his waters.

    Buehrle is another guy who never came across as an ace, and never had a 'peak' to speak of.. He was a reliable 200 IP guy who never missed time. He amazingly was only under .500 one time (12-13 in 2006) but he was usually AROUND .500.

    None of these guys are HOFers to me.
    Last edited by willshad; 08-17-2019, 02:24 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bravesfan1984
    replied
    The problem is what in his career stands out. He does have 3 top 5 CY finishes and that looks good until you realize that is 3 in 17 years. He won 20 games one year but his ERA was 4.14 and the year he won 18 games his ERA was 3.37. So he has some good things going for him but when you look closer they are not as great as they seem.

    Leave a comment:


  • bluesky5
    replied
    My heart tells me Hudson > Sabathia from the '3 Aces' A's days but I think C.C. is certainly ahead. I'd have Buehrle ahead of Pettitte.

    Leave a comment:


  • blacknwhiterose
    replied
    Originally posted by Bothrops Atrox View Post

    CC
    Pettitte
    Hudson
    Buehrle

    But I have the bottom 3 all between 81-88 and I could be convinced they belong in any order.
    I have:

    CC
    Hudson
    Pettitte
    Buehrle

    Pettitte consistently trails Hudson in most rate/value stats. By rate/value/win probability, Hudson and CC are very similar, while Pettitte is a notch below and Buehrle another notch down.

    Leave a comment:

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