Announcement

Collapse

Updated Baseball Fever Policy

Baseball Fever Policy

I. Purpose of this announcement:

This announcement describes the policies pertaining to the operation of Baseball Fever.

Baseball Fever is a moderated baseball message board which encourages and facilitates research and information exchange among fans of our national pastime. The intent of the Baseball Fever Policy is to ensure that Baseball Fever remains an extremely high quality, extremely low "noise" environment.

Baseball Fever is administrated by three principal administrators:
webmaster - Baseball Fever Owner
The Commissioner - Baseball Fever Administrator
Macker - Baseball Fever Administrator

And a group of forum specific super moderators. The role of the moderator is to keep Baseball Fever smoothly and to screen posts for compliance with our policy. The moderators are ALL volunteer positions, so please be patient and understanding of any delays you might experience in correspondence.

II. Comments about our policy:

Any suggestions on this policy may be made directly to the webmaster.

III. Acknowledgments:

This document was based on a similar policy used by SABR.

IV. Requirements for participation on Baseball Fever:

Participation on Baseball Fever is available to all baseball fans with a valid email address, as verified by the forum's automated system, which then in turn creates a single validated account. Multiple accounts by a single user are prohibited.

By registering, you agree to adhere to the policies outlined in this document and to conduct yourself accordingly. Abuse of the forum, by repeated failure to abide by these policies, will result in your access being blocked to the forum entirely.

V. Baseball Fever Netiquette:

Participants at Baseball Fever are required to adhere to these principles, which are outlined in this section.
a. All posts to Baseball Fever should be written in clear, concise English, with proper grammar and accurate spelling. The use of abbreviations should be kept to a minimum; when abbreviation is necessary, they should be either well-known (such as etc.), or explained on their first use in your post.

b. Conciseness is a key attribute of a good post.

c. Quote only the portion of a post to which you are responding.

d. Standard capitalization and punctuation make a large difference in the readability of a post. TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS is considered to be "shouting"; it is a good practice to limit use of all capitals to words which you wish to emphasize.

e. It is our policy NOT to transmit any defamatory or illegal materials.

f. Personal attacks of any type against Baseball Fever readers will not be tolerated. In these instances the post will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the personal attack via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue personal attacks will be banned from the site.

g. It is important to remember that many contextual clues available in face-to-face discussion, such as tone of voice and facial expression, are lost in the electronic forum. As a poster, try to be alert for phrasing that might be misinterpreted by your audience to be offensive; as a reader, remember to give the benefit of the doubt and not to take umbrage too easily. There are many instances in which a particular choice of words or phrasing can come across as being a personal attack where none was intended.

h. The netiquette described above (a-g) often uses the term "posts", but applies equally to Private Messages.

VI. Baseball Fever User Signature Policy

A signature is a piece of text that some members may care to have inserted at the end of ALL of their posts, a little like the closing of a letter. You can set and / or change your signature by editing your profile in the UserCP. Since it is visible on ALL your posts, the following policy must be adhered to:

Signature Composition
Font size limit: No larger than size 2 (This policy is a size 2)
Style: Bold and italics are permissible
Character limit: No more than 500 total characters
Lines: No more than 4 lines
Colors: Most colors are permissible, but those which are hard to discern against the gray background (yellow, white, pale gray) should be avoided
Images/Graphics: Allowed, but nothing larger than 20k and Content rules must be followed

Signature Content
No advertising is permitted
Nothing political or religious
Nothing obscene, vulgar, defamatory or derogatory
Links to personal blogs/websites are permissible - with the webmaster's written consent
A Link to your Baseball Fever Blog does not require written consent and is recommended
Quotes must be attributed. Non-baseball quotes are permissible as long as they are not religious or political

Please adhere to these rules when you create your signature. Failure to do so will result in a request to comply by a moderator. If you do not comply within a reasonable amount of time, the signature will be removed and / or edited by an Administrator. Baseball Fever reserves the right to edit and / or remove any or all of your signature line at any time without contacting the account holder.

VII. Appropriate and inappropriate topics for Baseball Fever:

Most concisely, the test for whether a post is appropriate for Baseball Fever is: "Does this message discuss our national pastime in an interesting manner?" This post can be direct or indirect: posing a question, asking for assistance, providing raw data or citations, or discussing and constructively critiquing existing posts. In general, a broad interpretation of "baseball related" is used.

Baseball Fever is not a promotional environment. Advertising of products, web sites, etc., whether for profit or not-for-profit, is not permitted. At the webmaster's discretion, brief one-time announcements for products or services of legitimate baseball interest and usefulness may be allowed. If advertising is posted to the site it will be copied by a moderator and/or administrator, deleted from the site, then sent to the member who made the post via a Private Message (PM) along with a single warning. Members who choose to not listen and continue advertising will be banned from the site. If the advertising is spam-related, pornography-based, or a "visit-my-site" type post / private message, no warning at all will be provided, and the member will be banned immediately without a warning.

It is considered appropriate to post a URL to a page which specifically and directly answers a question posted on the list (for example, it would be permissible to post a link to a page containing home-road splits, even on a site which has advertising or other commercial content; however, it would not be appropriate to post the URL of the main page of the site). The site reserves the right to limit the frequency of such announcements by any individual or group.

In keeping with our test for a proper topic, posting to Baseball Fever should be treated as if you truly do care. This includes posting information that is, to the best of your knowledge, complete and accurate at the time you post. Any errors or ambiguities you catch later should be acknowledged and corrected in the thread, since Baseball Fever is sometimes considered to be a valuable reference for research information.

VIII. Role of the moderator:

When a post is submitted to Baseball Fever, it is forwarded by the server automatically and seen immediately. The moderator may:
a. Leave the thread exactly like it was submitted. This is the case 95% of the time.

b. Immediately delete the thread as inappropriate for Baseball Fever. Examples include advertising, personal attacks, or spam. This is the case 1% of the time.

c. Move the thread. If a member makes a post about the Marlins in the Yankees forum it will be moved to the appropriate forum. This is the case 3% of the time.

d. Edit the message due to an inappropriate item. This is the case 1% of the time. There have been new users who will make a wonderful post, then add to their signature line (where your name / handle appears) a tagline that is a pure advertisement. This tagline will be removed, a note will be left in the message so he/she is aware of the edit, and personal contact will be made to the poster telling them what has been edited and what actions need to be taken to prevent further edits.

The moderators perform no checks on posts to verify factual or logical accuracy. While he/she may point out gross errors in factual data in replies to the thread, the moderator does not act as an "accuracy" editor. Also moderation is not a vehicle for censorship of individuals and/or opinions, and the moderator's decisions should not be taken personally.

IX. Legal aspects of participation in Baseball Fever:

By submitting a post to Baseball Fever, you grant Baseball Fever permission to distribute your message to the forum. Other rights pertaining to the post remain with the ORIGINAL author, and you may not redistribute or retransmit any posts by any others, in whole or in part, without the express consent of the original author.

The messages appearing on Baseball Fever contain the opinions and views of their respective authors and are not necessarily those of Baseball Fever, or of the Baseball Almanac family of sites.

Sincerely,

Sean Holtz, Webmaster of Baseball Almanac & Baseball Fever
www.baseball-almanac.com | www.baseball-fever.com
"Baseball Almanac: Sharing Baseball. Sharing History."
See more
See less

Bill Madlock

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • WAR is an interesting utility that can be used in conjunction with other stats, including traditional and SABR, though it is far from a be-all-end-all (as many of its most fervent fans around here may like it to be [they don't say that, but the fact that they reference that stat almost exclusively indicates it]). In terms of Gene Tenace, perhaps WAR overrates him. In terms of Bill Madlock, I think it underrates him. Baseball players are not computer printouts of numbers, they are human beings performing a task, which means human observation is needed to fully and completely analyze the task they are performing.

    Though Madlock is not a Hall of Fame baseball player, he was good at performing within his skillset--making contact with the ball. Modern baseball analysis seems to overrate the walk, but it also underrates the ability to not strike out frequently, which is something Madlock did. I think that adds to his value (though I must wonder if, on occasion, he would have been better to strikeout than to hit into a double play, which he did a bit).

    It shouldn't be forgotten that Madlock also hit when it counted. He had a .305 batting average with runners in scoring position, and better yet, he hit .390 with the bases loaded. With runners on second and third, he hit .354. He hit .314 in tie games, nine points higher than his career average--in fact, he was a better hitter in clutch situations than when his team had the lead, as his batting average during times they were ahead, he hit only .285.

    (Judging by his career performance, I think he may have been a better #2 hitter as opposed to #3 hitter, too.)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
      In the comparing Halls of Fame thread,Tenace is listed in 2 Halls, The Hall of Stats, and the The WAA Hall of Fame.

      This is also posted in the single ballot HOF thread:

      STLCards2, I'm not trying to be hyper-critical here (rather I just want to start a baseball debate), but I was wondering how you could possibly justify placing Gene Tenace in the Hall of Fame while removing such greats as Pie Traynor, Heinie Manush, and Mickey Welch? Does the 1972 World Series hold that much sway in your vote, or are there other reasons that I'm missing? This is coming from someone who was a big fan of Tenace's, by the way. The choice just seems perplexing to me.

      Advanced metrics (esp. WAR) show Tennace as one of the 11-12 greatest catcher ever, and guys like Manush and Traynor being vastly overrated (I am researching to see if WAR is whiffing on Traynor - I wouldn't be surprised if I don't add him back in soon). Welch is not a guy who a large majority of guys feel is a HOFer anyway - without the 300 wins, he wouldn't be considered close. A 112 ERA+ with the number of innings he threw in that era is nothing remarkable. If Welch, why not King or McCormick? I didn't know Manush was supported by many at all. And Tennace is very borderline for me - I could take him out.
      One of the big problems with Tenace is, was he really a catcher? He was about half catcher and half 1B/other. If he had been exclusively a catcher, I'd consider his candidacy more closely--but with the defensive profile he presents, I think the fact he is largely ignored in HOF disucssions is appropriate.
      Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
      Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
      A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jalbright View Post
        One of the big problems with Tenace is, was he really a catcher? He was about half catcher and half 1B/other. If he had been exclusively a catcher, I'd consider his candidacy more closely--but with the defensive profile he presents, I think the fact he is largely ignored in HOF disucssions is appropriate.
        Yeah, that's the crux the issue of making Tenace a hall of famer: he didn't catch enough to get a full "catcher boost", less than 900 games. In only four seasons was he his team's #1 catcher (75-77-79-80).

        Players within ten defensive games of Tenace:

        Rank Player (yrs, age) Def. Games as C
        144. Dave Valle (13) 902
        ----Wes Westrum (11) 902
        146. Buck Rodgers (9) 895
        147. Russell Martin (7, 29) 894
        ----Charlie Moore (15) 894
        ----Greg Myers (18) 894
        150. Hank Gowdy (17) 893
        151. Chad Kreuter (16) 892
        ----Gene Tenace (15) 892
        153. Otto Miller (13) 890
        154. Ray Fosse (12) 889
        155. Michael Barrett (12) 885
        ----Dave Duncan (11) 885
        Last edited by Freakshow; 02-25-2013, 09:13 AM.
        Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

        Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
          Shooting off at the mouth, lacking discretion in the spoken word..not usually a positive thing.

          And do you have any quotes of Stargell saying something bad about a teammate?
          Fair points.
          “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

          "Fill in any figure you want for that boy [Mantle]. Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

          Comment


          • Tenace has 44.3 WAR. Even for a catcher, this is a low amount for people to consider the player a HOFer. Who said WAR makes Tenace out to be HOFer?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by willshad View Post
              Tenace has 44.3 WAR. Even for a catcher, this is a low amount for people to consider the player a HOFer. Who said WAR makes Tenace out to be HOFer?
              WAR is tough on catchers, and in my view get about 7/8 of what they should compared to other positions. That means giving a full-time catcher a boost of about 1/7 of his WAR, which sneaks him into low HOF territory. But Tenace was half catcher half 1B/DH/corner OF, which doesn't merit the same adjustment.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
                WAR is an interesting utility that can be used in conjunction with other stats, including traditional and SABR, though it is far from a be-all-end-all (as many of its most fervent fans around here may like it to be [they don't say that, but the fact that they reference that stat almost exclusively indicates it].
                I don't think it indicates that at all, Cowtipper. I think that indicates that WAR and its components are available on the player page of every major leaguer in MLB history, that WAR totals for any group of players can be compiled with a few keystrokes, and of the single stats of which those are true, it by far incorporates the most and broadest quantitative information. Additional mind reading isn't necessary to account for its popularity.

                What I very rarely see here is someone posting, say, on base average, stolen bases, and runs scored and then looking at percentage of extra bases taken. it happens, but not often. Usually if someone looks at advanced stats, it's someone who looks at WAR for a quick and dirty overview.

                And frankly, in a lot of cases, say Bottomley v McGriff, that's all that's necessary. Granted, rating players is not what the stat is designed for, but in doing so, it's useful sometimes to know if someone is way ahead on quantifiable measures of runs accounted for.
                Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                Comment


                • Gene Tenace a Hof?! Mickey Tettleton better hear about this!

                  The sons of Manush are Outraged.

                  All you need to know @Madlock in the post season-'79, '85.

                  Comment


                  • Pros in Madlock's Career:
                    -2000+ Hits
                    -.305 Lifetime Average
                    -4 Batting Championships
                    -123 OPS+
                    -3 time All-Star
                    -1975 AS MVP
                    -Walked more than he struck out.
                    -1 5+ WAR Seasons (5.9 in '82)
                    -.308 lifetime hitter in postseason
                    -In the 1985 NCLS went .333/.333/.750 in 24 ABs with 3 HRs and 7 RBIs.

                    I know there's negatives you could bring up, but I just want to give the man a little credit.
                    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                    "Fill in any figure you want for that boy [Mantle]. Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
                      Gene Tenace a Hof?! Mickey Tettleton better hear about this!

                      The sons of Manush are Outraged.

                      All you need to know @Madlock in the post season-'79, '85.
                      Are you for or against Madlock?
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                        Pros in Madlock's Career:
                        -2000+ Hits
                        -.305 Lifetime Average
                        -4 Batting Championships
                        -123 OPS+
                        -3 time All-Star
                        -1975 AS MVP
                        -Walked more than he struck out.
                        -1 5+ WAR Seasons (5.9 in '82)
                        -.308 lifetime hitter in postseason
                        -In the 1985 NCLS went .333/.333/.750 in 24 ABs with 3 HRs and 7 RBIs.

                        I know there's negatives you could bring up, but I just want to give the man a little credit.
                        Madlock's case for the HOF is the kind of case a fan would make in a letter to The Sporting News or Baseball Digest. That's not a knock; such letters were usually more well-reasoned than some of the arguments that involve bizarre groupings.

                        I'm normally biased against a guy who pops off a lot, but I am beginning to see that a degree of the negative image of Madlock as a person has been overstated. There is not a lot of evidence to show that Madlock caused his teams to underperform, and a decent degree of evidence that shows Madlock as a guy that helped his teams win.
                        "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                        NL President Ford Frick, 1947

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X