SOC: Best Catchers Outside Cooperstown

[leecemark]

--Over the past six weeks ten regulars here in the Hall of Fame forum have been conducting a project, The Surburbs of Cooperstown, where we drafted teams of the best players eligible for, but not elected to the Hall of Fame. Now that we've identified what we see as the best available players we'd like to open it up for discussion to identify who the BBF membership as a whole thinks are the best candidates.
--We'll be doing this by position and starting with catcher. We drafted 21 players who played a significant portion of their career at catcher and we'd like you to comment on which of them may be serious candidates for the Hall of Fame. I encourage you to indentify the 10 best and rank them so we can get a consensus slotting. We will be "playing" these teams in a sim vs what we've identified as the least deserving Hall of Famers. Please incorporate th Hall of Famers into your top 10 (if they make it) so we can get an idea of how these players stack up against the bottom end of the Hall.
--Our starting catchers:
Quncy Trouppe
Bill Freehan
Charlei Bennett
Gene Tenace
Joe Torre
Thurmon Munson
Deacon White
Ted Simmons
Wally Schang
Lance Parrish
--Other catchers drafted:
Sherm Lollar
Chief Myers
Johnny Kling
Smokey Burgess
Tom Haller
Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
Darrell Porter
Jack Rowe
Elston Howard
Darren Daulton
Cal McVey
--The Hall of Famers to compare them to:
Ray Schalk
Rick Ferrell

--Please consider their entire careers and not just the time they spent as catchers. Feel free to give them a bump for non-playing considerations if you feel that appropriate, but keep in mind we are primarily interested in what they did on the field. You may just post a list if you want, but additional comments are encouraged. The discussion should be more interesting than the unadorned lists.

[leecemark]

My top 10 eligible catchers

Definate yeses for me
1) Deacon White
2) Ted Simmons
3) Bill Freehan
4) Joe Torre (and thats with no managerial bonus)
5) Charlie Bennett
6) Cal McVey
Worthy of consideration
7) Elston Howard
8) Thurman Munson
9) Quincy Trouppe
10) Lance Parrish
11) Wally Schang
--All of these are better/more deserving than Ferrell and Schalk (or Ernie Lombardi IMO). The first 5 are also more deserving than Roger Bresnahan, getting them closer to the mid-point of the Hall than the bottom rung.
--The other nine were fine players but don't really have any place in a HoF discussion that I can see.

[jjpm74]

1) Deacon White
2) Ted Simmons
3) Bill Freehan
4) Thurman Munson
5) Charlie Bennett
------------HOF Cutoff--------------
6) Joe Torre
7) Elston Howard
8) Johnny Kling
9) Quincy Trouppe
10) Gene Tenace
11) Lance Parrish

With the exception of maybe Tenace and Parrish, all of them are better than Schalk and possibly Ferrell.

[Paul Wendt]

Worthy of consideration
. . .11) Wally Schang
--The other nine were fine players but don't really have any place in a HoF discussion that I can see.

That should be the "other ten" because there are 21 in all.

I welcome all but 6 to the HOF discussion. A recent note about simulating Ted Radcliffe, by jim albright, suggests that I add him to the unwelcomes, but for now he is here only in parentheses. And by explaining that I cannot yet say no to Ted Radcliffe, I am including him in a HOF discussion!

Gene Tenace
Sherm Lollar
Smokey Burgess
Tom Haller
(Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe)
Jack Rowe
Darren Daulton

Mark,
You said something about Chief Meyers when you drafted him as your second catcher. I interpreted you to mean that Meyers, like Elston Howard, is an interesting case that depends on his biography before arriving in the majors. (Native American John Tortes Meyers arrived at age 27.9 yrs.mos.) Your reply may clarify what you hope to do here in this series.

By the way,
I also welcome Deacon McGuire to the conversation. He played so long (1884-1906) and he was a good batter 1887-1897. During five seasons as a "player-manager" he scored 15 plate appearances, 6 for 15 with one double and one homerun. That is batting .400, slugging .667. So I think he was not a good manager; he didn't pinch hit himself enough.

[RuthMayBond]

Torre
Simmons
Tenace
Deacon White
Freehan
Schang
Munson
Parrish
DPorter
Lollar
EHoward
(you guys missed some better ones)

[jjpm74]

Torre
Simmons
BDowning (I understand if you don't want to count him as catcher)
Tenace
Deacon White
Freehan
Schang
Munson
Parrish
DPorter
Sundberg

Downing and Sundberg didn't make the cut.

[jalbright]

I'll comment on them after modifying leecemark's list.

Quincy Trouppe--I'd put him just behind Ted Simmons, as the evidence indicates he was a very similar quality player. However, there's more evidence to demonstrate Ted was a great catcher.
Bill Freehan--a worthy HOFer
Charlei Bennett--the fact that he's worthy of the HOF is obscured not only because he caught, but he did so in the early days of the game.
Gene Tenace--a useful player, but someone I could leave out of the HOF discussion and not feel I'm missing anything of import.
Joe Torre--Solely as a player, I think he falls short--but with his managing success, he definitely is a HOFer.
Thurmon Munson--better than Tenace in my book, but I feel the same way about him as I do Tenace.
Deacon White--versatile 19th century guy who was probably even better a catcher than Bennett--and added some real value at 3rd as well.
Ted Simmons--definitely belongs
Wally Schang--quite possibly the best of the also-rans IMO, but not someone who I consider tough to leave out of the Hall
Lance Parrish--right around Munson in my book
Sherm Lollar--not quite Parrish or Munson, but better than Tenace
Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe--very valuable because of his versatility, but not very productive either as a hitter or as a pitcher. Great discussion material, but not someone I'd put in the Hall
Cal McVey--if he'd played a little longer, he'd probably have been worthy of the HOF. As it is, I'll pass on him.
The remaining guys don't inspire me, to put it mildly. Howard may deserve a little more consideration because of having to deal with racism at the transition into integration and for having the misfortune of having to unseat Berra.
Chief Myers
Johnny Kling
Smokey Burgess
Tom Haller
Darrell Porter
Jack Rowe
Elston Howard
Darren Daulton

--The Hall of Famers to compare them to:
Ray Schalk I want HOFers to actually be able to handle a bat. Schalk fails that test miserably.
Rick Ferrell Different package than Schalk, but close to the same overall value.
Ernie Lombardi--Weak defense, a short career for even a catcher. That's not a good combination in a HOF discussion. Ernie could hit, though. Worthy of discussion, but I wouldn't have voted for him.
Roger Bresnahan--I'm not quite sold on him, but if he doesn't deserve it, he's no more than about two eyelashes short.

[mtortolero]

Bill Freehan
Ted Simmons
Wally Schang
Charlei Bennett
Gene Tenace
Joe Torre
Thurmon Munson
Deacon White
Mickey Teltleton
Lance Parrish
Tom Haller
Darrell Porter
Elston Howard
Darren Daulton

[dgarza]

Bill Dickey
Deacon White - I don't list him as a C, so I won't number him, but he'd be here if I did
Mickey Cochrane
1. Cal McVey
Ernie Lombardi
2. Ted Simmons
Gabby Hartnett
Gary Carter
3. Joe Torre
Roy Campanella
Carlton Fisk
Buck Ewing

-----HOF line -------------

4. Thurman Munson
5. Lance Parrish
Walker Cooper - should be in your list (shame on you) to make the true #6
6. Bill Freehan
Rick Ferrell
7. Elston Howard
8. Wally Schang

------- I'm losing interest for HOF consideration ------

9. Darrell Porter
Roger Bresnahan
Spud Davis - should be in your list to make the true #11

Deacon McGuire - how can you keep missing players?
Mickey Tettleton - how many more missed players until I get to #10?
Tony Pena - this is strike 3!
10. Gene Tenace
11. Charlie Bennett
Bob Boone - whiff
12. Sherm Lollar

---5 more --------

Jim Sunberg
Jack Clements
Del Crandall
Johnny Roseboro
Darren Daulton

[leecemark]

Paul, Meyers period of excellence was way too brief for him to be a worthy Hall of Famer based soley on his major league career. Like Elston Howard he was a great player for half a decade. Howard's back story I know enough about that it almost gets him over the hump for me. What Meyers was doing before the Giants picked him up I really don't know anything about. It would have to be a remarkable story to have him a Hall of Famer IMO, but it isn't impossible I could be sold.

[leecemark]

--Future posters in this thread please be advised that only votes for the catchers selected in the Suburbs of Cooperstown draft will be counted. If you wish to comment on players we may have overlooked that is fine, but there are only 21 players in the voting pool. They are listed in the opening post.

[baseballPAP]

How they shake out for me...(not ranked within the categories)

"Where is my plaque?"
(2)Bill Freehan-easily #1 outside the hall
(7)Charlie Bennett- deadball ironman
(4)Joe Torre-good enough without his lineup card
(1)Deacon White-also played a lot of 3B...the guy was a STAR.
(3)Ted Simmons-overshadowed, but truly worthy
(5)Wally Schang- Craig Biggio of the teens

Legitimate case, but just short
(8)Quincy Trouppe-very close, in if I bought into ALL his hype
Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe-unique case, but not quite enough on talent
Thurmon Munson-maybe with another 4 years
(9)Elston Howard-same 4 years needed, entirely different reason
(10)Lance Parrish- if only he could have hit .270 a couple times
Gene Tenace-if he was a true catcher, yes...as a hybrid, just short
(6)Cal McVey-UT man HOF, but still was a short career guy...

Needed another couple "somethings"
Johnny Kling-a few more years, or a few more 3 for 4's
Darrell Porter-good and solid, but still short
Smokey Burgess-if PH had a HOF....
Sherm Lollar-great backstop, too bad they made him hit
Tom Haller-Lollar's flipside
Jack Rowe-career too short for me
Darren Daulton-that whole spaceman thing....geez

I can't see it
Chief Myers-well, at least I like the nickname

[Paul Wendt]

Paul, Meyers period of excellence was way too brief for him to be a worthy Hall of Famer based soley on his major league career. Like Elston Howard he was a great player for half a decade. Howard's back story I know enough about that it almost gets him over the hump for me. What Meyers was doing before the Giants picked him up I really don't know anything about. It would have to be a remarkable story to have him a Hall of Famer IMO, but it isn't impossible I could be sold.

Thanks for the explanation. How is this abbreviation?
For the big conversation, draft from ignorance. (Meyers)
For the small conversation, list from knowledge. (Howard)

(I don't advocate for Meyers at any level above getting his own thread at the
Hall of Merit (ChiefMeyers).
On the other hand, I don't speak conclusively until I read The American Indian Integration of Baseball (academic review).

--
Quoting the preface of this thread

I encourage you to indentify the 10 best and rank them so we can get a consensus slotting.

Later

--Future posters in this thread please be advised that only votes for the catchers selected in the Suburbs of Cooperstown draft will be counted.

Oh, I didn't recognize it as a formal vote --or informal vote that will be formally counted.

[leecemark]

--After this runs for awhile I'll add a poll asking which of our 21 candidates people see as worthy of consideration for Cooperstown. I'll also compile a consenus list of people's rankings and post the consensus top 10. That may or may not be of interest to anyone and may or may not accurately reflect group sentiment. It will reflect the fact that I am a compulsive list maker.

[RuthMayBond]

--It will reflect the fact that I am a compulsive list maker.

You say that like it's a bad thing