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  • SOC: Best Catchers Outside Cooperstown

    --Over the past six weeks ten regulars here in the Hall of Fame forum have been conducting a project, The Surburbs of Cooperstown, where we drafted teams of the best players eligible for, but not elected to the Hall of Fame. Now that we've identified what we see as the best available players we'd like to open it up for discussion to identify who the BBF membership as a whole thinks are the best candidates.
    --We'll be doing this by position and starting with catcher. We drafted 21 players who played a significant portion of their career at catcher and we'd like you to comment on which of them may be serious candidates for the Hall of Fame. I encourage you to indentify the 10 best and rank them so we can get a consensus slotting. We will be "playing" these teams in a sim vs what we've identified as the least deserving Hall of Famers. Please incorporate th Hall of Famers into your top 10 (if they make it) so we can get an idea of how these players stack up against the bottom end of the Hall.
    --Our starting catchers:
    Quncy Trouppe
    Bill Freehan
    Charlei Bennett
    Gene Tenace
    Joe Torre
    Thurmon Munson
    Deacon White
    Ted Simmons
    Wally Schang
    Lance Parrish
    --Other catchers drafted:
    Sherm Lollar
    Chief Myers
    Johnny Kling
    Smokey Burgess
    Tom Haller
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
    Darrell Porter
    Jack Rowe
    Elston Howard
    Darren Daulton
    Cal McVey
    --The Hall of Famers to compare them to:
    Ray Schalk
    Rick Ferrell

    --Please consider their entire careers and not just the time they spent as catchers. Feel free to give them a bump for non-playing considerations if you feel that appropriate, but keep in mind we are primarily interested in what they did on the field. You may just post a list if you want, but additional comments are encouraged. The discussion should be more interesting than the unadorned lists.
    132
    Deacon White
    9.09%
    12
    Bill Freehan
    9.85%
    13
    Joe Torre
    12.12%
    16
    Ted Simmons
    12.12%
    16
    Quincy Trouppe
    4.55%
    6
    Charlie Bennett
    6.82%
    9
    Lance Parrish
    6.06%
    8
    Wally Schang
    7.58%
    10
    Thurman Munson
    9.09%
    12
    Gene Tenace
    1.52%
    2
    Cal McVey
    4.55%
    6
    Elston Howard
    9.09%
    12
    Jack Rowe
    0.00%
    0
    Darrell Porter
    1.52%
    2
    Sherm Lollar
    0.00%
    0
    Chief Meyers
    0.00%
    0
    Johnny Kling
    2.27%
    3
    Tom Haller
    0.00%
    0
    Smokey Burgess
    1.52%
    2
    Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
    2.27%
    3
    Darren Daulton
    0.00%
    0

    The poll is expired.


  • #2
    My top 10 eligible catchers

    Definate yeses for me
    1) Deacon White
    2) Ted Simmons
    3) Bill Freehan
    4) Joe Torre (and thats with no managerial bonus)
    5) Charlie Bennett
    6) Cal McVey
    Worthy of consideration
    7) Elston Howard
    8) Thurman Munson
    9) Quincy Trouppe
    10) Lance Parrish
    11) Wally Schang
    --All of these are better/more deserving than Ferrell and Schalk (or Ernie Lombardi IMO). The first 5 are also more deserving than Roger Bresnahan, getting them closer to the mid-point of the Hall than the bottom rung.
    --The other nine were fine players but don't really have any place in a HoF discussion that I can see.
    Last edited by leecemark; 04-04-2008, 12:48 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      1) Deacon White
      2) Ted Simmons
      3) Bill Freehan
      4) Thurman Munson
      5) Charlie Bennett
      ------------HOF Cutoff--------------
      6) Joe Torre
      7) Elston Howard
      8) Johnny Kling
      9) Quincy Trouppe
      10) Gene Tenace
      11) Lance Parrish


      With the exception of maybe Tenace and Parrish, all of them are better than Schalk and possibly Ferrell.
      Last edited by jjpm74; 04-04-2008, 01:30 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by leecemark View Post
        Worthy of consideration
        . . .11) Wally Schang
        --The other nine were fine players but don't really have any place in a HoF discussion that I can see.
        That should be the "other ten" because there are 21 in all.

        I welcome all but 6 to the HOF discussion. A recent note about simulating Ted Radcliffe, by jim albright, suggests that I add him to the unwelcomes, but for now he is here only in parentheses. And by explaining that I cannot yet say no to Ted Radcliffe, I am including him in a HOF discussion!

        Gene Tenace
        Sherm Lollar
        Smokey Burgess
        Tom Haller
        (Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe)
        Jack Rowe
        Darren Daulton

        Mark,
        You said something about Chief Meyers when you drafted him as your second catcher. I interpreted you to mean that Meyers, like Elston Howard, is an interesting case that depends on his biography before arriving in the majors. (Native American John Tortes Meyers arrived at age 27.9 yrs.mos.) Your reply may clarify what you hope to do here in this series.

        By the way,
        I also welcome Deacon McGuire to the conversation. He played so long (1884-1906) and he was a good batter 1887-1897. During five seasons as a "player-manager" he scored 15 plate appearances, 6 for 15 with one double and one homerun. That is batting .400, slugging .667. So I think he was not a good manager; he didn't pinch hit himself enough.

        Comment


        • #5
          Torre
          Simmons
          Tenace
          Deacon White
          Freehan
          Schang
          Munson
          Parrish
          DPorter
          Lollar
          EHoward
          (you guys missed some better ones)
          Last edited by RuthMayBond; 04-05-2008, 06:23 AM. Reason: Remove guys who didn't make the cut
          Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
          Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RuthMayBond View Post
            Torre
            Simmons
            BDowning (I understand if you don't want to count him as catcher)
            Tenace
            Deacon White
            Freehan
            Schang
            Munson
            Parrish
            DPorter
            Sundberg
            Downing and Sundberg didn't make the cut.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'll comment on them after modifying leecemark's list.

              Originally posted by leecemark View Post
              Quincy Trouppe--I'd put him just behind Ted Simmons, as the evidence indicates he was a very similar quality player. However, there's more evidence to demonstrate Ted was a great catcher.
              Bill Freehan--a worthy HOFer
              Charlei Bennett--the fact that he's worthy of the HOF is obscured not only because he caught, but he did so in the early days of the game.
              Gene Tenace--a useful player, but someone I could leave out of the HOF discussion and not feel I'm missing anything of import.
              Joe Torre--Solely as a player, I think he falls short--but with his managing success, he definitely is a HOFer.
              Thurmon Munson--better than Tenace in my book, but I feel the same way about him as I do Tenace.
              Deacon White--versatile 19th century guy who was probably even better a catcher than Bennett--and added some real value at 3rd as well.
              Ted Simmons--definitely belongs
              Wally Schang--quite possibly the best of the also-rans IMO, but not someone who I consider tough to leave out of the Hall
              Lance Parrish--right around Munson in my book
              Sherm Lollar--not quite Parrish or Munson, but better than Tenace
              Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe--very valuable because of his versatility, but not very productive either as a hitter or as a pitcher. Great discussion material, but not someone I'd put in the Hall
              Cal McVey--if he'd played a little longer, he'd probably have been worthy of the HOF. As it is, I'll pass on him.
              The remaining guys don't inspire me, to put it mildly. Howard may deserve a little more consideration because of having to deal with racism at the transition into integration and for having the misfortune of having to unseat Berra.
              Chief Myers
              Johnny Kling
              Smokey Burgess
              Tom Haller
              Darrell Porter
              Jack Rowe
              Elston Howard
              Darren Daulton

              --The Hall of Famers to compare them to:
              Ray Schalk I want HOFers to actually be able to handle a bat. Schalk fails that test miserably.
              Rick Ferrell Different package than Schalk, but close to the same overall value.
              Ernie Lombardi--Weak defense, a short career for even a catcher. That's not a good combination in a HOF discussion. Ernie could hit, though. Worthy of discussion, but I wouldn't have voted for him.
              Roger Bresnahan--I'm not quite sold on him, but if he doesn't deserve it, he's no more than about two eyelashes short.
              Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
              Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
              A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

              Comment


              • #8
                Bill Freehan
                Ted Simmons
                Wally Schang
                Charlei Bennett
                Gene Tenace
                Joe Torre
                Thurmon Munson
                Deacon White
                Mickey Teltleton
                Lance Parrish
                Tom Haller
                Darrell Porter
                Elston Howard
                Darren Daulton
                You have to suffer a revolution to know what are you talking about.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bill Dickey
                  Deacon White - I don't list him as a C, so I won't number him, but he'd be here if I did
                  Mickey Cochrane
                  1. Cal McVey
                  Ernie Lombardi
                  2. Ted Simmons
                  Gabby Hartnett
                  Gary Carter
                  3. Joe Torre
                  Roy Campanella
                  Carlton Fisk
                  Buck Ewing

                  -----HOF line -------------

                  4. Thurman Munson
                  5. Lance Parrish
                  Walker Cooper - should be in your list (shame on you) to make the true #6
                  6. Bill Freehan
                  Rick Ferrell
                  7. Elston Howard
                  8. Wally Schang

                  ------- I'm losing interest for HOF consideration ------

                  9. Darrell Porter
                  Roger Bresnahan
                  Spud Davis - should be in your list to make the true #11

                  Deacon McGuire - how can you keep missing players?
                  Mickey Tettleton - how many more missed players until I get to #10?
                  Tony Pena - this is strike 3!
                  10. Gene Tenace
                  11. Charlie Bennett
                  Bob Boone - whiff
                  12. Sherm Lollar

                  ---5 more --------

                  Jim Sunberg
                  Jack Clements
                  Del Crandall
                  Johnny Roseboro
                  Darren Daulton
                  Last edited by dgarza; 04-05-2008, 08:00 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Paul, Meyers period of excellence was way too brief for him to be a worthy Hall of Famer based soley on his major league career. Like Elston Howard he was a great player for half a decade. Howard's back story I know enough about that it almost gets him over the hump for me. What Meyers was doing before the Giants picked him up I really don't know anything about. It would have to be a remarkable story to have him a Hall of Famer IMO, but it isn't impossible I could be sold.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      --Future posters in this thread please be advised that only votes for the catchers selected in the Suburbs of Cooperstown draft will be counted. If you wish to comment on players we may have overlooked that is fine, but there are only 21 players in the voting pool. They are listed in the opening post.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How they shake out for me...(not ranked within the categories)

                        "Where is my plaque?"
                        (2)Bill Freehan-easily #1 outside the hall
                        (7)Charlie Bennett- deadball ironman
                        (4)Joe Torre-good enough without his lineup card
                        (1)Deacon White-also played a lot of 3B...the guy was a STAR.
                        (3)Ted Simmons-overshadowed, but truly worthy
                        (5)Wally Schang- Craig Biggio of the teens

                        Legitimate case, but just short
                        (8)Quincy Trouppe-very close, in if I bought into ALL his hype
                        Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe-unique case, but not quite enough on talent
                        Thurmon Munson-maybe with another 4 years
                        (9)Elston Howard-same 4 years needed, entirely different reason
                        (10)Lance Parrish- if only he could have hit .270 a couple times
                        Gene Tenace-if he was a true catcher, yes...as a hybrid, just short
                        (6)Cal McVey-UT man HOF, but still was a short career guy...

                        Needed another couple "somethings"
                        Johnny Kling-a few more years, or a few more 3 for 4's
                        Darrell Porter-good and solid, but still short
                        Smokey Burgess-if PH had a HOF....
                        Sherm Lollar-great backstop, too bad they made him hit
                        Tom Haller-Lollar's flipside
                        Jack Rowe-career too short for me
                        Darren Daulton-that whole spaceman thing....geez

                        I can't see it
                        Chief Myers-well, at least I like the nickname
                        Last edited by baseballPAP; 04-05-2008, 01:25 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                          Paul, Meyers period of excellence was way too brief for him to be a worthy Hall of Famer based soley on his major league career. Like Elston Howard he was a great player for half a decade. Howard's back story I know enough about that it almost gets him over the hump for me. What Meyers was doing before the Giants picked him up I really don't know anything about. It would have to be a remarkable story to have him a Hall of Famer IMO, but it isn't impossible I could be sold.
                          Thanks for the explanation. How is this abbreviation?
                          For the big conversation, draft from ignorance. (Meyers)
                          For the small conversation, list from knowledge. (Howard)

                          (I don't advocate for Meyers at any level above getting his own thread at the
                          Hall of Merit (ChiefMeyers)
                          .
                          On the other hand, I don't speak conclusively until I read The American Indian Integration of Baseball (academic review).

                          --
                          Quoting the preface of this thread
                          I encourage you to indentify the 10 best and rank them so we can get a consensus slotting.
                          Later
                          --Future posters in this thread please be advised that only votes for the catchers selected in the Suburbs of Cooperstown draft will be counted.
                          Oh, I didn't recognize it as a formal vote --or informal vote that will be formally counted.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            --After this runs for awhile I'll add a poll asking which of our 21 candidates people see as worthy of consideration for Cooperstown. I'll also compile a consenus list of people's rankings and post the consensus top 10. That may or may not be of interest to anyone and may or may not accurately reflect group sentiment. It will reflect the fact that I am a compulsive list maker.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                              --It will reflect the fact that I am a compulsive list maker.
                              You say that like it's a bad thing
                              Mythical SF Chronicle scouting report: "That Jeff runs like a deer. Unfortunately, he also hits AND throws like one." I am Venus DeMilo - NO ARM! I can play like a big leaguer, I can field like Luzinski, run like Lombardi. The secret to managing is keeping the ones who hate you away from the undecided ones. I am a triumph of quantity over quality. I'm almost useful, every village needs an idiot.
                              Good traders: MadHatter(2), BoofBonser26, StormSurge

                              Comment

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