SOC: Best Firstbasemen Outside Cooperstown

[leecemark]

--The Suburbs of Cooperstown is a project designed to identify the best players eligible for but not enshirned in the Hall of Fame. Ten of the regulars here drafted teams of 20 players each (200 players total). This is the second in a series of follow on threads where these players are offered up one position at a time. Firstbase was not a position where we indentified alot fo oversights. Two of our 10 starting 1B (Frank Howard and Cal McVey) are better known for their work at other positions and a third (Dick Allen) played nearly as much at 3B as 1B. Even including these crossovers the 16 players drafted as firstbasemen were the fewest at any position.
--If you like to contribute to this thread, there are several things we are looking for. One we'd like you to rank the top 10 (or all 15) players in this group. Second (or instead of number 1) we'd like to to sort them into three groups; a) Should be in the Hall, b) worthy of consideration for the Hall or c) not worthy of consideration. Third we'd like to have your opinion on how many of these guys are better than the players we identified as the 2 worst Hall of Fame firstbasemen - George Kelly and Jim Bottomly.
--The 10 Suburbs of Cooperstown starting firstbasemen are Dick Allen, Keith Hernandez, Joe Start, Norm Cash, Will Clark, Mark McGwire, Jak Fournier, Dave Orr, Frank Howard and Cal McVey. Also drafted were Steve Garvey, Boog Powell, Luke Easter, Don Matttingly, Jack Clark and Gil Hodges.

[runningshoes]

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[leecemark]

Should be in the Hall
1) Dick Allen
2) Keith Hernandez
3) Joe Start
4) Cal McVey
Worthy of Consideration
5) Mark McGwire
6) Frank Howard
7) Don Mattingly
Not Worthy
8) Will Claark
9) Norm Cash
10) Gil Hodges
11) Jack Fournier
-------Jim Bottomley
12) Luke Easter (unless he has alot of untold story to sell
13) Steve Garvey
14) Boog Powell
15) Jack Clark
16) Dave Orr
---Many others
--George Kelly

[Edgartohof]

12) Luke Easter (unless he has alot of untold story to sell
13) Steve Garvey

I guess I am missing something here. Is there something you can fill me in on?

[Gee Walker]

Should be in the Hall: DIck Allen

Would be in except for the big asterisk: Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro

Might be deserving: Keith Hernandez, Frank Howard, Norm Cash, Dave Orr - all about even with Bottomley.

Will Clark, Don Mattingly, Gil Hodges, and quite a few more rank higher than George Kelly.

[leecemark]

I guess I am missing something here. Is there something you can fill me in on?

--If this question is about Easter much of his career is undocumented - or maybe he just didn't start playing professionally until very late. If its about Garvey he just wasn't that good. I mean he was a good player, but not a great one.

[soberdennis]

My rankings would include in no particular order.
Gil Hodges
Keith Hernandez
Don Mattingly
Dick Allen
Mark McGwire
Steve Garvey

I just want to throw a name out there, not really knowing whether to put him on the list but to hear others opinion and why-Phil Cavaretta.

[baseballPAP]

Sorry for the blantant cut/paste Mark, but it was too close not to in this case.....

Should be in the Hall
1) Dick Allen
2) Keith Hernandez
3) Joe Start
4) Mark McGwire
5) Frank Howard
Worthy of Consideration
6) Cal McVey
7) Don Mattingly
Not Worthy
8) Will Clark
9) Jack Fournier
10) Norm Cash
11) Gil Hodges
-------Jim Bottomley
12) Luke Easter (unless he has alot of untold story to sell
13) Steve Garvey
14) Boog Powell
15) Jack Clark
16) Dave Orr


I have seen material from somewhere crediting Easter with prodigous numbers into his late 40s playing in the minors.....

[jjpm74]

Unlike the position of catcher, there's not a lot of 1st basemen outside of Cooperstown that are viable candidates. However, the handful that are HOF worthy are major oversights, IMHO:

1) Joe Start
2) Dick Allen
3) Keith Hernandez
4) Don Mattingly
--------------Gray Area HOF cutoff---------------------
5) Norm Cash
6) Luke Easter (He's a very good first baseman based on what I've read on his NeL play)
7) Will Clark
8) Mark McGwire
9) Dave Foutz (Lest we forget he was a star 1st baseman, not just a star pitcher in his day)
10)Cal McVey (More of a utility player)
11) Jack Fournier
12) Steve Garvey
13) Boog Powell
14) Jack Clark
15) Dave Orr
16) Frank Howard (not a primary 1st baseman. I'd rate him significantly higher at his primary position)
17) Gil Hodges (Sorry, I just don't see why he deserves the HOF as a player or why he gets a small but very vocal group of supporters. Maybe if he gets major credit for work as a manager. As a player, there are about 100 people I'd support ahead of him for Cooperstown)

[jjpm74]

I just want to throw a name out there, not really knowing whether to put him on the list but to hear others opinion and why-Phil Cavaretta.

Very good in his era. I looked at him closely as a starter for my team during the draft. I'd rate him just ahead of Jack Fournier on my list.

[DoubleX]

If Start is to go into the Hall as anything, it should be as a pioneer player. He played largely in the 1860s and 1870s, in the extreme infancy of organized ball as we know it, and when the game was much different than the game that most of the others in this list and in the Hall played. He's just not a 1Bman in the same sense as the others, IMO, who all share much more commonality in terms of how the game was structured and played.

Didn't we already label McVey a C? Regardless, I feel the same about McVey as I do about Start. I'm not precluding these guys from being in the Hall, I just don't believe they should be lumped with generations of players from a much more established game with more common elements. A special pioneer player distinction is appropriate to me for these early stars, and I would likely support both Start and McVey as such, but I can't at 1B.

As for the rest, Allen is the only one I'd put in the Hall. Hernandez, Clark, and McGwire, are very close to the fence for me, while Mattingly and Cash are a little further back. I'd probably put Easter somewhere around here as well. Everyone else is too far away, though I'd probably put Hodges at the front of this group in terms of Hall consideration (even though I might have him behind a few of the others in my rankings).

[leecemark]

--McVey was considered at catcher. From this group Howard will also be cross referenced in LF as will Allen at 3B and Jack Clark in RF. I'm looking to get the most possible persepective on al of these players in the preliminary polls. In the second round of discussion when we've narrowed it down to the serious candiates players will only be listed at the position they got the most support at - assuming they get enough of support somewhere to merit further discussion.
--Last I looked at the catcher poll there were 11 players who 50% or more of the respondants thought were worthy of consideration. I doubt it will be half that many at firstbase. When the poll goes up for firstbase I intend to note vote for Howard or McVey. I did vote for McVey at catcher and will vote for Howard in LF. Not sure that does McVey justice though since the catcher candidates are so much deeper and he is likely to be lost in the crowd. Maybe I'll chance that if McVey drops below 50% at catcher....

[DoubleX]

Mark, how are you determining whether to consider a player at another position? There are lots of players here that played some time at multiple positions, so at what point do they qualify? Howard played just 334 games at 1B, so would that mean that someone like Boog Powell would qualify in LF given that he played 431 games there?

This could become particularly complicated when we got to the OF as a lot of guys have probably played a few hundred games at different OF positions. Eric Davis for example, played 304 games in RF, 352 in LF, and 845 in CF, so will be in on the list for all three? I kind of think for a poll like this, we should try to identify a player with their primary position. If there is a player with significant time at multiple positions like McVey or Harvey Kuenn or perhaps even Dick McAuliffe, perhaps we could have an additional utility player poll? I just think there should be some threshold as to what qualifies a player for a position, and not that just that he played a little bit of his career there and technically could for purposes of the sim.

[leecemark]

--Frank Howard is only in the first base poll because he was drafted as a firstbaseman. Otherwise he'd be LF only. McVey probably would have been listed only at catcher (although he really doesn't have a primary position) if he wasn't a starting 1B in the Suburban League. I don't feel like I can ignore the wishes of the participant who selected a particular player.
--For guys who do have a particular position (Eric Dvis for example is clearly a CFer or he has no plac ein the discussion) where they are clearly identified they will only be mentioned once. This will be especially true for our truely marginal guys. Boog Powell is unlikley to generate much discussion at firstbase, much less in LF where he spent a few years early on.
--For the outfielders I'll list them where they were drafted except for the guys who played alot of CF who were drafted to play a corner. Andre Dawson, for example, I can support as a CFer (with only a few misgivings). He was drafted a s a RFer though and had he been a career RFer would be well short for me. There are going to be spme judgment calls in the prelininary discussion threads and I may not be entirely consistent with how I make those judgements. For the next round of threads we'll be discussing only players who got 50% of the "deserves consdieration" vote in the prelininary polls though. That should eliminate most of the dounle dipping (although I don'tee how I could justify not voting for Dick Allen at both 1B and 3B:noidea).

[dgarza]

Should be in the Hall
1. Mark McGwire
2. Dick Allen
Jim Bottomly - HOFer
3. Don Mattingly
4. Steve Garvey
5. Dave Orr
6. Cal McVey
Dolph Camilli - not drafted
7. Keith Hernandez

Worthy of Consideration
8. Will Clark
9. Frank Howard
10. Jack Fournier
Rudy York - not drafted
Mickey Vernon - not drafted
Tony Perez - HOFer
11. Gil Hodges
Hal Trosky - not drafted
Frank McCormick - not drafted
Harry Davis - not drafted
Ted Kluszewski - not drafted
John Reilly - not drafted
12. Norm Cash
Henry Larkin - not drafted
Roy Sievers - not drafted
Ed Konetchy - not drafted
Jake Daubert - not drafted

Not Worthy of Consideration
13. Boog Powell
Cecil Fielder - not drafted
14. Jack Clark
George Burns - not drafted
Bill Buckner - not drafted
Hal Chase - not drafted
George Scott - not drafted
Bill White - not drafted
Ripper Collins - not drafted
George Kelly - HOFer
Frank Chance - HOFer
Phil Cavarretta - not drafted
Lee May - not drafted
Stuffy McInnis - not drafted
Charlie Hickman - not drafted
Wally Pipp - not drafted
15. Joe Start

16. Luke Easter - no opinion