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What if Dave Kingman had 500 HRs. HOFER?

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  • #76
    I am one of the few people who voted yes, not because I think he would belong had he hit 500 HRs, but because that seemed to be a criterion for automatic HOF induction at the time he played. Of course, all the other hitters who reached 500 HRs were better hitters than he was anyway, so my argument is probably flawed, but I just believe that 500 HRs was once a magic number that got players into the HOF by rote.

    Of course, I could be wrong..... Had there been a 'Probably' option, I would have chosen it. For the record, I do NOT believe Kong would have belonged in the HOF had he hit 500 HRs.
    Last edited by Dodgerfan1; 03-22-2008, 07:19 AM.
    Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours. - Yogi Berra

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    • #77
      Brock & Co.

      Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
      The kind of longevity needed to reach 3,000 hits is a testament to greatness. The "worst" player who collected 3,000 hits is Lou Brock, and he was a CF, who retired as the all-time stolen base leader, and had a record of outstanding postseason play.
      Teammate Curt Flood was the centerfielder. He is #1 on the career list by fielding win shares and of course Bill James gives him grade A+.

      For his career Brock played 86% left, 4% center, 10% right. James gives him grade C-.

      Ironically, the Cardinals lost the 1968 World Series when Lou Brock didn't slide into home and Curt Flood missed a fly.

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      • #78
        Complete brain fart on my part, Paul.

        Cognitive dissonance perhaps - as it would help explain Brock's standing had he been...
        THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

        In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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        • #79
          Dave Kingman was a one-dimensional player. It was miraculous that he managed to hang around long enough to belt as many home runs as he did. 500 HRs would not have made him a HOFer.

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          • #80
            I tend to think he would have made it, but as others have pointed out he was the first 400-homer guy to be passed over.
            The Writer's Journey

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            • #81
              There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?
              "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

              - Alvin Dark

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              • #82
                Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?
                Don Sutton? Mickey Welch? If you want someone short of 300, Bobby Mathews? For a more modern example, Jamie Moyer?
                Last edited by jjpm74; 10-21-2010, 07:44 PM.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                  There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?
                  Jamie Moyer
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                    There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?
                    If Jim Kaat could have hung in for a couple last seasons where he went 17-25 with an ERA+ of 70, he'd be in the discussion.

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                    • #85
                      I voted yes because I think he would have made it with 500. I do not think he would deserve it however. Hope the poll wasn't asking "should he go" in.
                      Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

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                      • #86
                        I would say no.

                        Dave Kingman was very one dimensional. I remember several years ago, when a member of this board insisted that Kingman was Mark Mcgwire without the walks. This is simply not true. Mcgwire's batting average was right about the league average for the time he played. Kingman's was 26 points below. That is pretty significant, so even if we rank them even on power(which is probably not accurate) and give Kingman Mac's walk rate Mcgwire still brought more to the table.

                        Kingman did not walk enough, and his BA was not high enough. His ops+ was 115, and it was fueled by slugging. Kingman did not contribute enough to be an HOF guy, even with 500 home runs.

                        He was, however, a valuable player. At his best, he was an all-star.

                        I should add that in discussing McGwire I am not factoring the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Bench 5 View Post
                          I think the A's refused to sign him because he was considered a bad influence on Canseco!
                          :clown: :clown:

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                          • #88
                            I voted through the eyes of a HoF voter. They think anybody who hit 500+ jacks that didn't use PEDs are HoF worthy. IMO Kingman wouldn't be regardless. He could only do HR, he struck out 3 times as many times as he walked, and Some people have higher BA's than his OBP. His simply was nothing without his power, absolutley nothing.
                            Favorite players: Ted Williams, Rogers Hornsby, Stan Musial

                            GO SOX!!

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                            • #89
                              Request: If you shaved off the same % of singles, doubles, triples, walks & outs compared to Kingman's career totals, and turned them into 58 extra HRs for him, what would his numbers look like?
                              http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

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                              • #90
                                Do you mean simply to replace 58 lesser outcomes (in proportion to his career record) with 58 homeruns? Given his career homerun rate, that means to replace 61-62 plate appearances (in proportion to his career record) with 61-62 homeruns. Three or four of the 61-62 would be homeruns; net gain 58 homeruns. With career on-base average .302, one component would be replacement of 42-43 batting outs with homeruns. In turn that would increase his career on-base average to about .308. Is that what you mean?

                                What would that exercise show?

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