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What if Dave Kingman had 500 HRs. HOFER?

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  • WhiteSoxFan22
    replied
    I voted through the eyes of a HoF voter. They think anybody who hit 500+ jacks that didn't use PEDs are HoF worthy. IMO Kingman wouldn't be regardless. He could only do HR, he struck out 3 times as many times as he walked, and Some people have higher BA's than his OBP. His simply was nothing without his power, absolutley nothing.

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  • hwmongoose
    replied
    Originally posted by Bench 5 View Post
    I think the A's refused to sign him because he was considered a bad influence on Canseco!
    :clown: :clown:

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  • dl4060
    replied
    I would say no.

    Dave Kingman was very one dimensional. I remember several years ago, when a member of this board insisted that Kingman was Mark Mcgwire without the walks. This is simply not true. Mcgwire's batting average was right about the league average for the time he played. Kingman's was 26 points below. That is pretty significant, so even if we rank them even on power(which is probably not accurate) and give Kingman Mac's walk rate Mcgwire still brought more to the table.

    Kingman did not walk enough, and his BA was not high enough. His ops+ was 115, and it was fueled by slugging. Kingman did not contribute enough to be an HOF guy, even with 500 home runs.

    He was, however, a valuable player. At his best, he was an all-star.

    I should add that in discussing McGwire I am not factoring the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

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  • White Knight
    replied
    I voted yes because I think he would have made it with 500. I do not think he would deserve it however. Hope the poll wasn't asking "should he go" in.

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  • Gee Walker
    replied
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?
    If Jim Kaat could have hung in for a couple last seasons where he went 17-25 with an ERA+ of 70, he'd be in the discussion.

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  • Chadwick
    replied
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?
    Jamie Moyer

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  • jjpm74
    replied
    Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
    There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?
    Don Sutton? Mickey Welch? If you want someone short of 300, Bobby Mathews? For a more modern example, Jamie Moyer?
    Last edited by jjpm74; 10-21-2010, 07:44 PM.

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  • AstrosFan
    replied
    There was a thread on whether Doc Cramer would have made it if he got 3,000 hits. Cramer would have been a terrible choice as well. Given the milestone trinity of 500 HR, 3,000 H, and 300 W, and acknowledging that Kingman is our guy on the first, and Cramer on the second, who might we consider the 300 W equivalent? Is there such a player?

    Leave a comment:


  • hairmetalfreek
    replied
    I tend to think he would have made it, but as others have pointed out he was the first 400-homer guy to be passed over.

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  • jjpm74
    replied
    Dave Kingman was a one-dimensional player. It was miraculous that he managed to hang around long enough to belt as many home runs as he did. 500 HRs would not have made him a HOFer.

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  • BaseballHistoryNut
    replied
    The Tigers made him an offer at the beginning of 1987, and Sparky Anderson really wanted him.

    Moreover, that would have been a great place for Kong to hit HR's, and 1987 was a year of very live baseballs and inflated HR numbers. But Kong said he wanted to be the everyday DH, and Darrell Evans was then in the process of being perhaps the greatest post-40 hitter of all time (at that point), so he was their LH-designated hitter. Anderson regretfully said no.

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  • Food
    replied
    Did the Mariners make him a major-league offer in the middle of the '87 season? I seem to remember that they ultimately went with Gary Matthews because Kong wasn't interested.

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  • BaseballHistoryNut
    replied
    Originally posted by baseball junkie
    I have no recollection of ever seeing Dave Kingman play therefore I will have to base my evaluaton solely on his raw numbers. That being said I'm not very fond of players who extend their careers for several years by appearing as a team's designated hitter, as Kingman did. With that in mind, here are a few of Kingmans raw stats:

    1) struck out 1,816 times compared to garnering 608 walks;
    2) retired with a .236 batting average and a .302 on-base percentage;
    3) had 100 or more RBI twice in a 16 year career, spent significant stretches of time as a DH;
    4) although he had seven chances to, never won a Silver Slugger Award;
    5) owns a .111 post-season BA and a .200 OBP;
    6) in 16 years stole 85 bases and was caught 49 times, a 64% "success rate";
    7) never won a Gold Glove or Most Valuable Player Award
    8) hit 442 home runs but knocked in only 1,210 RBI (excluding himself from that number the total shrinks to 768 RBI over 16 seasons.

    Those are eight fairly compelling reasons that elucidate how Kingman was a one dimensional player and should not be a Hall of Famer. And Eight Is Enough for me.

    Most members of the BBWAA, a few of whom I know personally through my work as a journalist, also would have been aware of these reasons. The baseball writers generally get the HOF voting right. It was the old Veteran's Committee that flooded the HOF with unworthy players.
    The baseball writers HATED Dave Kingman from Day One, because of his outrageously surly attitude. He was Ted Williams, minus 100 tons of skill, and they treated him like they treated Williams in his career.

    Please take my word for what I said about Kingman: the ultimate one-dimensional man, terrible at everything else, and I mean just terrible beyond belief, but he hit the 5th highest pre-Steroid Ball % of HR's and a lot of them were extremely timely. When he was with Oakland in 1984-1986 and the team stunk, all the fans cared about was Kingman. I lived 75 miles away, and someone would frequently ask me, in reference to that day's A's game, not, "Did Oakland win," but, "Did Kingman do anything?" Translation: "Did Kingman hit one of those moonshots?" They were so mesmerizing you couldn't help be fascinated.

    Like I said, it was "only" 1 every 15.11 AB's, and other than 2+ singles in the other 15.11 AB's, he was worse-than-worthless: especially in the field and, from what many ex-teammates said, in the clubhouse.

    If he'd never played the field, I'd vote to put him in the Hall. And in 30 or 40 years, after those who played against and with him are gone, and after a sense of how tough hitting was in the 1970's and 1980's has set in, those 442 HR's probably will get him in the Hall, though he won't live to see it. But he won't belong there. His teams paid HUGE prices for those errors, and those errors are why, if you go back and look at his season-by-season AB totals, he had such a low career AB total and thus not 600 HR's and only 2 HR crowns. If he'd have been able to field his position, Mike Schmidt--whose career HR/AB ratio was close but lower, would never have won 8 HR crowns.

    I was as magnetized by Kingman's go-for-it-all swings, and the occasional moon shots, as anyone alive. But he should never make the Hall.

    BHN

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  • Sliding Billy
    replied
    Originally posted by 538280
    I don't understand. I still don't get how getting these milestones means you're a truly great player. Kingman could have easily stuck around a few more years, a team could have easily just picked him up, put him at DH, and he probably would have hit the same as he did the previous year. I suspect, in fact, that no team did because they DIDN'T want him to get to 500 HRs.
    Well, they didn't want him to get 500 homers while playing on their team, anyway. Kingman played on 8 teams in 16 years (counting the Mets twice.) He holds the record for playing in four different divisions in a single year.

    Kingman's last year was 1986. In July 1987 he was signed as a free agent by the Giants and never played for them. It's hard to believe that a player can hit 35 home runs a year and not be good enough to play, but Dave Kingman was that player.

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  • baseball junkie
    replied
    Nope

    I have no recollection of ever seeing Dave Kingman play therefore I will have to base my evaluaton solely on his raw numbers. That being said I'm not very fond of players who extend their careers for several years by appearing as a team's designated hitter, as Kingman did. With that in mind, here are a few of Kingmans raw stats:

    1) struck out 1,816 times compared to garnering 608 walks;
    2) retired with a .236 batting average and a .302 on-base percentage;
    3) had 100 or more RBI twice in a 16 year career, spent significant stretches of time as a DH;
    4) although he had seven chances to, never won a Silver Slugger Award;
    5) owns a .111 post-season BA and a .200 OBP;
    6) in 16 years stole 85 bases and was caught 49 times, a 64% "success rate";
    7) never won a Gold Glove or Most Valuable Player Award
    8) hit 442 home runs but knocked in only 1,210 RBI (excluding himself from that number the total shrinks to 768 RBI over 16 seasons.

    Those are eight fairly compelling reasons that elucidate how Kingman was a one dimensional player and should not be a Hall of Famer. And Eight Is Enough for me.

    Most members of the BBWAA, a few of whom I know personally through my work as a journalist, also would have been aware of these reasons. The baseball writers generally get the HOF voting right. It was the old Veteran's Committee that flooded the HOF with unworthy players.
    Last edited by baseball junkie; 08-03-2006, 07:10 AM.

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