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What if Dave Kingman had 500 HRs. HOFER?

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  • Originally posted by LVW View Post
    What if he had gotten to 600 HR?
    He would have had to be a dramatically different player to do that. He couldn't stay in the game with his attitude, defense, and on base percentage, despite the dingers. Similarly, if Doc Cramer had been a .400 OBP guy, he'd have had dramatically more value and would be in the Hall, too.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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    • And getting to 600 may not do anything for Sammy Sosa either. At least it shouldn't (as far as Hall of Fame induction) in my opinion. He was far from being on a Hall of Fame path before the ridiculous Nintendo numbers started happening. However, it appears that (based off the early reports in another thread) Slammin' Sammy is getting more votes than Mark McGwire. Maybe his 600 will help?
      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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      • Not sayin' he would've gotten in with 500 but those of you comparing him to Dunn and Sosa; 500 HRs back in the 70s and the 80s were not the same as 500 HRs today. It was quite an accomplishment back in those days; 500 HR Club was very exclusive and prestigious.

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        • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
          Not sayin' he would've gotten in with 500 but those of you comparing him to Dunn and Sosa; 500 HRs back in the 70s and the 80s were not the same as 500 HRs today. It was quite an accomplishment back in those days; 500 HR Club was very exclusive and prestigious.
          I know, but so is the 600 HR club. It is still extremely exclusive despite the huge spike in home runs in the 1990s and 2000s. Fewer guys are in the 600+ club than were in the 500+ club back when Kingman would have joined it, if he could have. That is why I brought up Sosa.
          "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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          • How many other players have closed out their careers with a 35* HR season?

            *Or more

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            • This thread had me poking around in Kingman's splits, and there are some really interesting things about '84 for him.
              Dave hit very well with RISP, .303 BA with .577 slugging.
              He went hog wild with men on first only, .313 BA with 14 HRs in 115 ABs, .713 slugging...only 5 walks. Seems like pitchers were giving him strikes with a guy on first despite his lack of patience, and he went nuts on the ball.
              With the bases loaded, Kingman went totally insane...5 hits in 10 ABs, 3 HRs, 1 2B, 1 single. .500 BA, 1.500 slugging, 1 K, no walks, 24 RBI, 6 sac flies for a .313 OBP! Seems kind of unfair in a way, but I guess you could argue that getting one run in with an out with the bases loaded and less than two outs isn't a wonderful outcome. Dave also hit extremely well with men on 2nd and 3rd.
              Just seemed odd to me that Kingman had more RBI in '84 than his big '79 with the Cubs, and I would say that his outstanding performance with runners on had something to do with it. Couldn't have hurt that the amazing Rickey Henderson was batting in front of him in '84, while the '79 Cubbies had a truly brutal offense...Dave actually had pretty good splits with runners on in '79, too, but not quite as many opportunities. I'll have to look at that more later!
              "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

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              • Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
                How many other players have closed out their careers with a 35* HR season?

                *Or more
                That's a good question. I wonder how many even finished their final season with 30. The first two that popped into my mind were Ted Williams and Mark McGwire. Big Mac had 29 or so in his final year, which was an injury marred half season actually. Ted Williams "only" had 29 in 390 plate appearances, but he hit .316/.451/.645 with a 190 OPS+ at age 41.

                Kingman certainly hit more home runs (only 6, but with a much larger home park), however was only hitting .210/.255/.431 (90 OPS+) at age 37 with a pretty good supporting cast in Oakland. The 35 home runs are impressive, but nothing else about that batting line is.
                "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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                • Kingman has the most in his last season. There are two guys tied at 29 for second place, Ted Williams and Mark McGwire.
                  Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
                  Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
                  A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

                  Comment


                  • Thanks.

                    And by the way, Williams & McGwire were my first guesses too! I decided to ask after I checked them.

                    The 93 RBI isn't too bad either. It's not Top Ten for that year but it's not ridiculously far off the pace (Joe Carter lead the AL with 121).

                    I understand the one-dimensionality arguments, and basically agree, but it's very hard to believe that a guy coming off three straight 30-or-more HR and 90+-RBI seasons, and closing in on 500 career HR, would not have been of value to a single team in all of MLB.

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                    • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                      Not sayin' he would've gotten in with 500 but those of you comparing him to Dunn and Sosa; 500 HRs back in the 70s and the 80s were not the same as 500 HRs today. It was quite an accomplishment back in those days; 500 HR Club was very exclusive and prestigious.
                      It still is. Thome, Thomas and Griffey are the only clean post 90's players to make it. Pujols will soon join them.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                      • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        It still is. Thome, Thomas and Griffey are the only clean post 90's players to make it. Pujols will soon join them.
                        And out of that list, I suspect everyone except Griffey.
                        Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

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                        • Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
                          Thanks.

                          And by the way, Williams & McGwire were my first guesses too! I decided to ask after I checked them.

                          The 93 RBI isn't too bad either. It's not Top Ten for that year but it's not ridiculously far off the pace (Joe Carter lead the AL with 121).

                          I understand the one-dimensionality arguments, and basically agree, but it's very hard to believe that a guy coming off three straight 30-or-more HR and 90+-RBI seasons, and closing in on 500 career HR, would not have been of value to a single team in all of MLB.
                          I would have thought that some bottom dwelling teams would have picked him up, especially if they had a small stadium like the Mariners in the Kingdome. They sure as heck weren't going anywhere, and they got rid of Gorman Thomas as the DH. Kingman could have helped put some fans in that place with his monster HRs, and the fact that he would have been chasing 500. Other than that, I can't think of any other reason why a team would want his attitude in the clubhouse, or those non-HR stats in their lineup.
                          "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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                          • Originally posted by White Knight View Post
                            And out of that list (Thome, Thomas, Griffey, Pujols) I suspect everyone except Griffey.
                            It's foolhardy not to suspect everyone.
                            This week's Giant

                            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                            • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                              It still is. Thome, Thomas and Griffey are the only clean post 90's players to make it. Pujols will soon join them.
                              To me Thome and Thomas is highly suspect. Griffey is less so but still can't eliminate him. There's no way you can classify anyone as clean.

                              Are you saying you believe Pujols to be clean?

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                              • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                                To me Thome and Thomas is highly suspect. Griffey is less so but still can't eliminate him. There's no way you can classify anyone as clean.

                                Are you saying you believe Pujols to be clean?
                                This post makes my case for ending the moralism and witch hunts.
                                "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                                NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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