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Cecil Cooper?

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  • Cecil Cooper?

    Career .298/.337/.466.
    241 HR
    1,125 RBI's
    2,192 hits
    1,012 Runs
    415 Doubles
    100+ RBI's 4 times
    2 seasons of 200+ Hits, 30+ HR's, and 100+ RBI's.
    5-Time All Star
    2 Time GG winner
    Led league twice in Doubles and HR's
    Top 5 in hits 4 times
    Top 10 in HR's 3 times
    Top 5 in BA 3 times
    Top 10 in OPS+ 4 times
    41
    Yes
    14.63%
    6
    No
    85.37%
    35

    The poll is expired.

    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

  • #2
    Cooper is just an ALL-Star not a Hall of Famer.

    Just like the man the Red Sox traded Cooper for is just an ALL-Star.

    Brewers traded George Scott for Cecil cooper to the Red Sox

    Comment


    • #3
      Cooper is a little short of the line for me, but he has a better case than Buckner and there is a thread trying to drum up support for him. He doesn't have as good a case as Allen or Mattingly or Clark or Hernandez or Cash or Hodges and several more coming up for consideration over the next few years. I'd say his chances are pretty slim.

      Comment


      • #4
        Cooper really belongs in the Will Clark/Mattingly/Hernandez/Garvey cluster of 1b, and since I think the people in that group makes the cut, Cooper does as well, for me.

        He was a low visibility player in Milwaukee during his prime, but he was really every bit as good as those other players. His low OBP hurts him -- he would have been better to walk more.

        I've no illusions that he's going to get in any time soon -- there's a logjam at 1b, and it's going to get worse before it gets better -- but I'm with Dudecar.

        By the way, you meant he led the league twice in doubles and RBI, right? Plus, he led in total bases in 1980, when Cooper had an absolutely gonzo season that was totally overshadowed by Brett's run at .400.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wow.

          Glad to see Cooper isn't totally forgotten in the discussion, at least.

          Personally, I agree that he belongs in the Clark/Mattingly/Garvey class of first basemen who aren't in.

          I'm very reluctant, however, to elect en masse that group and I'd rather shift through it one player at a time looking for a reason that Cooper might stand out above these other guys.

          At this moment in time, I can't see it. So I would say that, at best, Cooper is in a dog fight for the title of "best first baseman who doesn't belong in the Hall."
          "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
          "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
          "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
          "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

          Comment


          • #6
            Cooper seemed to take a few years to "warm up" to the big leagues, which probably "hurt" him a bit for HOF consideration, but once he got to out of Boston, he hit stride. He also knew when to call it quits, instead of hanging on for way too many years, which might have "hurt" his number too, but is really more respectable.

            Comment


            • #7
              I wouldn't endorse him for the HOF, but he most certainly deserved a better fate than zero votes when he was on the actual ballot. That always has puzzled me.
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              • #8
                I think Cooper called it quits because he had reached a point where nobody would pay him to play anymore. His numbers his last two seasons were 258/312/373 and 248/296/372.
                At his peak Cooper was a very good firstbaseman. If he had gotten started a little earlier he would have a reasonable case. I think of him as an Al Oliver type player, but Oliver played 500 more games and still ended up with slightly better percentages. Oliver also gets extra credit for playing CF, even though he didn't play center as well as Cooper played first. I know it is streching it a bit to bring Oliver into the discussion, but he did play six seasons at first and was a similar yet better player than Cooper. If you look at Cooper's numbers in isolation he doesn't seem really out of place in a Hall of Fame discussion. When you start looking at all the players better than him not in the Hall, his cases starts looking awfully weak.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Cooper's career numbers compared to league average:

                  BA - +13%
                  OBP - +3%
                  SLG - +18%
                  OPS* - 21%

                  * indicates this figure is adjusted for park factors.

                  You know, there aren't that many players with an OPS+ of 121 who came to bat almost 8,000 times and who aren't in the Hall of Fame.

                  A lineup with 9 Cecil Coopers could expect to put up 5.8 runs per game on the board.
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chancellor
                    You know, there aren't that many players with an OPS+ of 121 who came to bat almost 8,000 times and who aren't in the Hall of Fame.
                    Not but Will Clark, Keith Hernandez, Don Mattingly, Gil Hodges, George Foster, Willie Horton, Jose Canseco, Dwight Evans, Dave Parker, Harold Baines, Jim Rice, Reggie Smith, Bobby Bonds, Dale Murphy, Ken Singleton, Rusty Staub, Al Oliver, Tim Raines, Chili Davis, Bob Elliot, Sherry Magee, Joe Torre, Ed Konetchy, Hal McRae, Ron Santo, Jimmy Ryan, ... please tell me when to stop..I know, some of these guys are not eligable yet, but...



                    and I have a hard time seeing 7349 ABs as almost 8,000, so I'm including those with 7000-7500+ ABs and OPS+ of 120 plus.
                    Last edited by dgarza; 06-03-2004, 09:39 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Baseballreference.com lists the top 100 in OPS+ based on 3,000 AB. Number 100 is at 136 or 15% better than Cooper. Of course, that is more than a little unfair to Cooper since he had well over twice the number of AB required to make the list. 32 of the top 100 are not in the Hall of Fame, but of those only Will Clark (138), Sherry Magee (137 ) and Reggie Smith (136) could match Coopers 7,000 + AB. Frank Howard (142), Harry Stovey (143), Norm Cash (139), Bob Johnson (138) and Jack Clark (137) had over 6,000. Using AB short changes Cash and Clark because they walked over twice as much as Cooper and both actually played in more games. Howard also walked much more than Cooper and played in about the same number of games.
                      There is a pretty big gap between Cooper and number 100. I'd guess at least 100 more guys would be ahead of him. Mattingly played about the same number of games and had a 6% higher ops. I was pleased to see that my early comment that he was very similar to Al Oliver as a hitter was proved correct by this measure. They have exactly the same OPS+ and Oliver had over 1,000 more AB.
                      What I learned from this bit of work was 1) I am way underrating Will Clark, 2) everyone is underrating Norm Cash and Reggie Smith, 3) the Sherry Magee fan club is absolutely right (although I was at least partly onboard before) and 4) Cecil Cooper is further than ever from being on my Hall of Fame radar.
                      Frank Howard, Harry Stovey, Bob Johnson and Jack Clark fared well too, but I can only upgrade so many at a time.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some people need to stop making threads about people going into the hall (who have no business being) there just to look smart.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by leecemark
                          everyone is underrating Norm Cash and Reggie Smith,
                          Reggie Smith more so...

                          Ken Singleton suprisingly makes the list, too.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chancellor

                            A lineup with 9 Cecil Coopers could expect to put up 5.8 runs per game on the board.
                            and with Cecil pitching, probably 5.8 runs for the other team as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dgarza
                              and with Cecil pitching, probably 5.8 runs for the other team as well.
                              If his delivery were anything like his batting stance . . .
                              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

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