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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cougar
    It ought to be pointed out that Hoffman had one of his finest seasons in 2006. He came in a close 2nd in the Cy Young balloting, a very impressive showing for a closer. (Frankly, I think he probably should have won.)
    Lack of dominating SP was just as responsible (or more, IMO) as Hoffman's performance.

    He did blow some big games last year down the stretch if I remember correctly.
    THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

    In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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    • #32
      Originally posted by digglahhh
      Lack of dominating SP was just as responsible (or more, IMO) as Hoffman's performance.

      He did blow some big games last year down the stretch if I remember correctly.
      True enough; there wasn't an NL starter that was having an obvious Cy-caliber season.

      In terms of blowing big games, you're probably thinking of three in particular.
      (A) The All-Star Game, (B) the game where LA hit four straight HR in the ninth -- Hoffman surrendered the last two, and (C) the last game of the year, where Hoffman actually got the save in a bad performance, coming in with a three run lead and giving up two runs (in the same otherwise meaningless game where Webb got shelled too).

      Not great. But you're still only talking about one game that "counted", and there was the other 63 games he appeared in.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Cougar
        It ought to be pointed out that Hoffman had one of his finest seasons in 2006. He came in a close 2nd in the Cy Young balloting, a very impressive showing for a closer. (Frankly, I think he probably should have won.)
        I might concur with this. I agreed that Eric Gagne deserved the Cy Young the year he won it, for the same reasons, so I don't see why Hoffman should be viewed differently.
        "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

        NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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        • #34
          I think it's four years now I've been saying Hoffman would get to 500 saves... and now that he's actually on the cusp of doing so, I'm very impressed (almost suspicious) at how well he's been able to maintain his dominance as a closer.

          It looks now like Hoffman is going to leave Smith behind in his dust... if he can maintain this level into his early 40s there's no telling how many saves he'll pile up!

          Now, the save itself is a shaky statistic... but you look at Hoffman's overall performance... how can anyone say this man is not dominant, despite his modern-day IP numbers?

          Seems every couple months I'm reiterating my kudos to Trevor
          http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploa...-showalter.gif

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          • #35
            Hoffman's not just going to break the save record, he's going to bury the pieces. He helped himself again this year.

            Rivera is chasing Hoffman, but Hoffman is actually INCREASING his lead in saves over Rivera.

            All of this suggests that Hoffman WILL go into the HOF. Should he? It's hard to say, in that he WILL hold the saves record; indeed, he will extend it significantly. There's a consensus that such an accomplishment is Hall-worthy. On the other hand, if Hoffman was so great, why wasn't he a starter? The answer is probably because he didn't have the kind of stuff needed to start. Like most relievers. One-trick-ponies can survive a long time as relievers, but when you're a starter, you've GOT to have a fastball with either velocity or location, SOME kind of breaking pitch, and some ability to change speeds. Many relievers can rack up saves without having all those tools, but a starter is back-of-the-rotation fodder if he doesn't have them all.
            "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

            NL President Ford Frick, 1947

            Comment


            • #36
              I believe he will get in at this point. I have always felt that saves where overrated somewhat. But at the same time, I have seen what happens when a team does not have someone that they can go to close games.
              Last edited by CJMorello; 02-23-2008, 08:05 PM. Reason: Spelling

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              • #37
                Originally posted by CJMorello View Post
                I believe he will get in at this point. I have always felt that saves where overrated somewhat. But at the same time, I have seen what happens when a team does not have someone that they can go to close games.

                No matter how many saves he gets, I will have a hard time putting in someone with less than 1000 IP with a 147 ERA+.

                Quizenberry has a 146 with about 100 more innings, and I have him on my HOF borderline. He probably pitched more innings in save situations than did Hoffman.

                As he progresses past 1000 IP with say a 145 ERA+ he will move from the outside to the inside in my book. I hope he has a couple more seasons good enough to get him in.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by brett View Post
                  No matter how many saves he gets, I will have a hard time putting in someone with less than 1000 IP with a 147 ERA+.

                  Quizenberry has a 146 with about 100 more innings, and I have him on my HOF borderline. He probably pitched more innings in save situations than did Hoffman.

                  As he progresses past 1000 IP with say a 145 ERA+ he will move from the outside to the inside in my book. I hope he has a couple more seasons good enough to get him in.
                  I hear ya. I'm tough on modern closers in terms of HOF candidacy.

                  I don't know why Hoffman is always mentioned as 1a right behind Rivera. He may be the second best of the era (though Wagner will likely have something to say about it too). But Hoffman doesn't sniff Mo. They sport almost identical IPs and Rivera has like 50 point ERA+ lead on him. Also consider that Hoffman has developed something of a reputation as a choker in the biggest spots.

                  To put the workload and ERA+ into perspective, Roy Oswaly has already racked up like 400 more innings than Hoffman and can claim an ERA+ only four points below Hoffman's.
                  THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                  In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by brett View Post
                    No matter how many saves he gets, I will have a hard time putting in someone with less than 1000 IP with a 147 ERA+.

                    Quizenberry has a 146 with about 100 more innings, and I have him on my HOF borderline. He probably pitched more innings in save situations than did Hoffman.

                    As he progresses past 1000 IP with say a 145 ERA+ he will move from the outside to the inside in my book. I hope he has a couple more seasons good enough to get him in.
                    I don't get the Hoffman as a HOFer thing, really. The career saves leader thing didn't make Lee Smith a Hall of Famer. Smith has 1289.3 IP and a 131 ERA+. What makes Hoffman so much better? I'll say this, if Hoffman's a HOFer, then Billy Wagner is definitely on the fast track. He just needs a little more longevity, and suddenly, he's unquestionably got better numbers than Hoffman. Maybe he does already.
                    "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                    - Alvin Dark

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by AstrosFan View Post
                      ... if Hoffman's a HOFer, then Billy Wagner is definitely on the fast track. He just needs a little more longevity, and suddenly, he's unquestionably got better numbers than Hoffman. Maybe he does already.
                      Except that Wagner is probably even more notorious than Hoffman for blowing the big ones, not that I should have to tell you...

                      Wagner's been terrible in the postseason.

                      That stuff is more important for closers, IMO, considering that is really the extent of their jobs.
                      THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                      In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Saves are so easy to get these days that different measures are needed for modern relievers. Rivera impresses because of his ERA+ and postseason work, so he seems to be a lock, but otherwise.....

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
                          Except that Wagner is probably even more notorious than Hoffman for blowing the big ones, not that I should have to tell you...

                          Wagner's been terrible in the postseason.

                          That stuff is more important for closers, IMO, considering that is really the extent of their jobs.
                          With the Astros, I think it was just depression over the way the offense was performing. The one time the Astros got their team OPS above .600, Wagner had an ERA of 0.00.
                          "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

                          - Alvin Dark

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Trevor Hoffman

                            Is Hoffman a Hall of Famer ?
                            Sure, he is the all time save leader, but that is no guarantee of induction.
                            I would like to hear your opinions.
                            http://soundbounder.blogspot.com/

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                            • #44
                              The only current reliever who is HOF bound is Mariano Rivera. The rest of them are primarily good closers and compilers.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by parlo View Post
                                Is Hoffman a Hall of Famer ?
                                Sure, he is the all time save leader, but that is no guarantee of induction.
                                I would like to hear your opinions.
                                I think he should be.
                                I don't guarantee induction but I expect it.

                                Hoffman has more than the saves record. He has a better record than Lee Smith in some other ways.

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