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  • #46
    Originally posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    I think he should be.
    I don't guarantee induction but I expect it.

    Hoffman has more than the saves record. He has a better record than Lee Smith in some other ways.
    It took Gossage such a long time to get in. Was Hoffman really that dominant ? Was he far superior to his peers? Hoffman might be better than Lee Smith, but Smith is not the barometer used to determine HOF worthiness.
    http://soundbounder.blogspot.com/

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    • #47
      Originally posted by parlo View Post
      It took Gossage such a long time to get in. Was Hoffman really that dominant ? Was he far superior to his peers? Hoffman might be better than Lee Smith, but Smith is not the barometer used to determine HOF worthiness.
      Lee Smith currently has 43% support from the writers, after 6 years on the ballot. I think there is a good chance the writers will not elect him, but I know there isn't much room for them to judge someone better than Smith and not elect that other one.

      There has been talk of Lee Smith as a Hall of Fame (often in the negative) for ten years, before he was eligible. I suppose that his prominence as holder of the saves record, and as protagonist in that debate, helped Rich Gossage. Surely some writers must have asked themselves, ok, if I doubt we should coronate the saves record holder, whom do I think we should vote for? It's hard to beat Smith for longevity, and my doubts concern his greatness at any time (mediocre peak), so I think we should probably vote for someone who is strong in those other ways. Eckersley, Sutter, and Gossage all fill the bill but length and timing of their ballot careers suggests only that Sutter and Gossage may have benefited from Smith as a point of reference.

      Hoffman has been excellent for a longer time than anyone else, not to say dominant like Rivera. Whether Hoffman seems distinguished when it counts may depend more on what Wagner is able to accomplish. Wagner is three years younger. If he remains effective for three more years and Hoffman doesn't continue effectively, then they both look more ordinary. If they both stall essentially at end 2007 then Hoffman looks quite distinguished, yes, with a career substantially longer than Henke and Wagner, the only others since Gossage who have been good for a decade.

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      • #48
        I say yes. In 15 full years, 12 of them his ERA was under three, and he's averaged 18 walks a year, as opposed to Smith's 27 and Gossage's 33 a year. So I would vote for Hoffman (And Rivera)
        Originally posted by bhss89
        "Hi. My name is John. I'd like you to meet my fastball. Can you catch up to it?
        Didn't think so. I'll see you again tomorrow night around the top of the ninth."
        Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy
        Why can't they just air the doubleheaders? Those programs aimed at children are crap anyway.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by blacksilverfan12 View Post
          I say yes. In 15 full years, 12 of them his ERA was under three, and he's averaged 18 walks a year, as opposed to Smith's 27 and Gossage's 33 a year. So I would vote for Hoffman (And Rivera)
          Gossage pitched a lot more innings per year. So that makes no sense. Is there someting I am overlooking????
          http://soundbounder.blogspot.com/

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          • #50
            Hoffman was very good, but he is not a HOFer.

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            • #51
              I wonder how much longer Hoffman will play... Like will he get to 600 saves? If he does, he should be in the HoF. I still think he will get in the HoF. say he gets to 550 saves in his career... that's 27.5 saves average over 20 years. That's pretty amazing. I think Hoffman is a good guy to set a bar for other closers to get in the HoF if he gets in.

              I see Rivera, Hoffman, and Wagner getting in. Then it'll be awhile for the next one IMO. I'm talking about guys who are in the majors now.
              "Back before I injured my hip, I thought going to the gym was for wimps."
              Bo Jackson

              Actually, I think they were about the same because I lettered in all sports, and I was a two-time state decathlon champion.
              Bo Jackson

              My sophomore year I placed 2nd, and my junior and senior year - I got smart and piled up enough points between myself and second place where I didn't have to run the mile.
              Bo Jackson

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              • #52
                Originally posted by The Splendid Splinter View Post
                I wonder how much longer Hoffman will play... Like will he get to 600 saves? If he does, he should be in the HoF. I still think he will get in the HoF. say he gets to 550 saves in his career... that's 27.5 saves average over 20 years. That's pretty amazing. I think Hoffman is a good guy to set a bar for other closers to get in the HoF if he gets in.
                27.5 save for 20 years or 35 saves for 15 years would be more amazing than what Hoffman has actually done.

                In 1994 he saved just under half the games he finished, in 1995 and thereafter more than 60%. So make 1995 the start: 499 saves in 12 seasons, or 11.9 with April 1995 lost to second spring training. That is 42 per season. What's most amazing is his consistency. 9 innings and 0 saves in 2003 but 1995 prorates to 35 saves and that is otherwise his 12-season minimum! In 11 seasons Rivera's minimum is 28.

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                • #53
                  Hoffman will be elected and deservingly so.
                  "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
                  "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
                  "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
                  "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

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                  • #54
                    Hoffman is already a hall of famer to me. If he pitches next season, he'll end up with the most games finished and most saves of any pitcher. Smith and Franco both have more games finished, but far more games pitched, which leads to the idea that Hoffman is the greatest Closer of the three. Of relievers in the hall right now, I have Wilhelm, Gossage, and Fingers ahead of Hoffman. The list expands once you get to players outside the hall (Rivera, Quiz).
                    Last edited by The Dude; 05-01-2008, 01:44 PM. Reason: Wow, I completely forgot Gossage finally got in.
                    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
                    AL Pennant: 1982
                    NL Central Champions: 2011
                    NL Wild Card: 2008

                    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

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                    • #55
                      I do expect him to elected, but good grief, the guy doesn't even have 1000 IP's after 15 years in the Bigs.
                      Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by KCGHOST View Post
                        I do expect him to elected, but good grief, the guy doesn't even have 1000 IP's after 15 years in the Bigs.
                        Yeah Rivera will pass 1000 in his 14th season... It's going to be hard for a lot of closers to get 1000 IPs in 15 years nowadays. Like Wagner for example, he's in his 14th season like Rivera, but he's 200 IPs behind. It'll take Wagner at least 2 seasons after this one to get a chance at 1000 IPs.
                        "Back before I injured my hip, I thought going to the gym was for wimps."
                        Bo Jackson

                        Actually, I think they were about the same because I lettered in all sports, and I was a two-time state decathlon champion.
                        Bo Jackson

                        My sophomore year I placed 2nd, and my junior and senior year - I got smart and piled up enough points between myself and second place where I didn't have to run the mile.
                        Bo Jackson

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by parlo View Post
                          It took Gossage such a long time to get in. Was Hoffman really that dominant ? Was he far superior to his peers? Hoffman might be better than Lee Smith, but Smith is not the barometer used to determine HOF worthiness.

                          Hoffman is perceived to be dominant, and perceived to be bettr than all of his peers, except Rivera, whom he is considered on a par with. At least, that's how I see it.

                          I'm not a big fan of relievers in the HOF. I view relievers as guys who were not good enough to start. But we've already opened that can of worms. Hoffman is Hall-worthy by the standards of the relievers we have already put into the HOF. I rate Hoffman ahead of Lee Smith, who I DON'T view as Hall-worthy.
                          "I do not care if half the league strikes. Those who do it will encounter quick retribution. All will be suspended and I don't care if it wrecks the National League for five years. This is the United States of America and one citizen has as much right to play as another. The National League will go down the line with Robinson whatever the consequences. You will find if you go through with your intention that you have been guilty of complete madness."

                          NL President Ford Frick, 1947

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                          • #58
                            I vote NO, The idea of a reliver is to save a win especially the BIG Game

                            It isnt any great accomplishment to save a game where you pitch one inning against Tampa Bay when you are ahead by 3 runs.

                            BIG games make or break HOF status, How many BIG games has Trever Hoffman saved.

                            Compare to Curt Shilling (Yes I know he is a starter) another on the cusp HOF, When the BIG game came, He step up to the MOUND and Pitched well.

                            Hoffman just blew it.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear View Post
                              Hoffman is perceived to be dominant, and perceived to be bettr than all of his peers, except Rivera, whom he is considered on a par with. At least, that's how I see it.

                              I'm not a big fan of relievers in the HOF. I view relievers as guys who were not good enough to start. But we've already opened that can of worms. Hoffman is Hall-worthy by the standards of the relievers we have already put into the HOF. I rate Hoffman ahead of Lee Smith, who I DON'T view as Hall-worthy.
                              I agree here. I'm not a huge supporter, but I expect him to go. It won't particularly enthuse me, nor will it ruffle my feathers.

                              One thing I find curious is how Hoffman is always mentioned in the same breath as Rivera. Well, Billy Wagner trails Hoffman by fewer than 200 career inning (granted, that's like 3 seasons for a closer), but blows Hoffman out of the water quality-wise. Of the recent closers, if we're talking "dominance" my vote for the silver medal goes to Wags, not Hoffman.
                              THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT COME WITH A SCORECARD

                              In the avy: AZ - Doe or Die

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by digglahhh View Post
                                I agree here. I'm not a huge supporter, but I expect him to go. It won't particularly enthuse me, nor will it ruffle my feathers.

                                One thing I find curious is how Hoffman is always mentioned in the same breath as Rivera. Well, Billy Wagner trails Hoffman by fewer than 200 career inning (granted, that's like 3 seasons for a closer), but blows Hoffman out of the water quality-wise. Of the recent closers, if we're talking "dominance" my vote for the silver medal goes to Wags, not Hoffman.
                                Yeah, by the time Hoffman is eligible, he may no longer be the saves leader, or have as dominant a career as several relievers.
                                Hoffman also faces stiff pitcher competition in HOF voting. Maddux, Randy Johnson, Glavine, Smoltz will all be on the ballots around the same time. After that, Pedro and Mariano will become eligible. Theres also Clemens, Schilling and most likely a few that I am forgetting.
                                http://soundbounder.blogspot.com/

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