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1901 Mock Ballot Suggestions

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  • 1901 Mock Ballot Suggestions

    In preparation for getting the 1901 election going in our progressive HoF project, I wanted to solicit help for finalizing the first ballot. To be eligible for the 1901 ballot, a player must have played at least 8 major league seasons after 1876 (this will become 10 starting in 1902), and have retired no later than 1896. Thus, eligible players in the first election will have retired between 1884-1896. Players retiring before 1884 will be considered by an imaginary VC under a pioneer/player distinction.

    So far we have these 40 candidates, and I would prefer to have 50 at most.

    Dan Brouthers - 1896 (appeared briefly again in 1904)
    Dave Foutz - 1896
    Arlie Latham - 1896 (appeared briefly again in 1899 and 1909)
    Tommy McCarthy - 1896
    Doggie Miller - 1896
    Oyster Burns - 1895
    Jack Glasscock - 1895
    Pete Browning - 1894
    John Ward - 1894
    John Clarkson - 1894
    Tony Mullane - 1894
    Charlie Bennett - 1893
    King Kelly - 1893
    Henry Larkin - 1893
    Jim O'Rourke - 1893 (appeared briefly again in 1904)
    Harry Stovey - 1893
    Bob Caruthers - 1893
    Tim Keefe - 1893
    George Gore - 1892
    Ned Hanlon - 1892
    Tip O'Neill - 1892
    Hardy Richardson - 1892
    Charlie Buffinton - 1892
    Pud Galvin - 1892
    Mickey Welch - 1892
    Fred Dunlap - 1891
    Paul Hines - 1891
    Charley Radbourn - 1891
    Dave Orr - 1890
    Jack Rowe - 1890
    Deacon White - 1890
    Ned Williamson - 1890
    Charley Jones - 1888
    Ezra Sutton - 1888
    Larry Corcoran - 1887
    Bobby Mathews - 1887
    Jim McCormick - 1887
    Joe Start - 1886
    Will White - 1886
    Tommy Bond - 1884

  • #2
    If you're really looking to get closer to 50 players, here are some suggestions for lesser candidates :

    Tom York - 1885
    Davy Force - 1886
    George Bradley - 1888
    Guy Hecker - 1890
    Jim Whitney - 1890
    Abner Dalrymple - 1891
    John Reilly - 1891
    Pop Snyder - 1891
    Sam Wise - 1893
    Charlie Comiskey - 1894
    Elton Chamberlain - 1896

    Comment


    • #3
      There's already such a huge number of electable guys listed that expanding the ballot size further will be counter productive.
      "It is a simple matter to erect a Hall of Fame, but difficult to select the tenants." -- Ken Smith
      "I am led to suspect that some of the electorate is very dumb." -- Henry P. Edwards
      "You have a Hall of Fame to put people in, not keep people out." -- Brian Kenny
      "There's no such thing as a perfect ballot." -- Jay Jaffe

      Comment


      • #4
        for what it's worth

        As consultant for the Ultimate Quest i listed for myself 128 players with careers centered in the 1890s and earlier. Fifty "retired" after 1885 to 1896. Your list comprises 38 of those plus Doggie Miller and Ned Hanlon. Here are the other twelve.

        Jerry Denny
        Yank Robinson
        Abner Dalrymple
        Fred Carroll
        Jack Burdock
        Pop Snyder
        Guy Hecker
        Jim Whitney
        Silver Flint
        Charlie Ferguson
        Davy Force
        Tom York

        York, Force, and Whitney were on the final ballots for Ultimate Quest, round one. Dalrymple and Burdock were final cuts by the group.

        I like York, Dalrymple, Force, and Snyder in different ways.

        Bill James likes George Pinkney (not listed) and Fred Carroll.

        dgarza named Wise and Reilly who make a better fifty in place of Carroll and Ferguson.

        Hanlon and Comiskey are reasonable picks in their way, not mere players.

        Beside Tommy Bond, seven players on my list "retired" after 1884. I am ignoring that year because the high demand for players brought so many old-timers back to the majors, some of them as player-managers.

        Having looked at the IA/NA 1877-1880 statistics since I made the list of 128, the other interesting players are Fred Goldsmith, a dominating pitcher already in 1877 (three seasons); George Wood, a precocious batter (two seasons); and John O'Rourke (whatever happened to him?). At best, Goldsmith or Wood might belong in the top forty, and O'Rourke doesn't belong in the electoral conversation.

        Comment


        • #5
          --Why 1876 and not 1871? You are eliminating some very good candidates who would have 8 (or even 10) including the NA seasons, but don't qualify with 1876 as a starting point. Ross Barnes and Cal McVey I think are both amoung the top 20 19th century players, but aren't eligible based on the 1876 starting point.

          Comment


          • #6
            Depending on your token appearances rule, here are others to consider.

            Bill Hutchison – 1895 (6g, 40ip in 1897)
            Buck Ewing – 1896 (1g, 2pa in 1897)
            Adonis Terry – 1896 (1g, 8ip in 1897)
            Si quaeris peninsulam amoenam, circumspice.

            Comprehensive Reform for the Veterans Committee -- Fixing the Hall continued.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'd also like to see the 1871 starting point. Barnes deserves consideration in the 19th century professional players subset. Not the early innovators of the game veterans committee subset.

              On a different note, are you going with the 5% 15 year rule or is a player going to remain an eligible candidate permanently as long as they maintain at least 5% support throughout the mock elections?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Freakshow View Post
                Depending on your token appearances rule, here are others to consider.

                Bill Hutchison – 1895 (6g, 40ip in 1897)
                Buck Ewing – 1896 (1g, 2pa in 1897)
                Adonis Terry – 1896 (1g, 8ip in 1897)
                If they appeared in 1897, they'll first be eligible in 1902.

                Mark, I'll consider adding McVey and Barnes. My preference had been to throw players from that period to an imaginary VC (unless someone wants to run a VC in conjunction with this), as I tend to view players from that period as more of pioneers and I believe that there should be a distinct cutoff anyway. But if there is a strong belief that those players should be included, I'll include them. If so, are there others from that period that should make it?

                Paul, all the players you mentioned were on my extended list and some might make it. Are there any in particular you feel are more deserving of being on the ballot? Perhaps I'll consider having a larger ballot for the first election, knowing that many of the players will drop off from the 5% rule anyway.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DoubleX View Post
                  If so, are there others from that period that should make it?
                  There is a large group of stars from that era and earlier, but with the exception of Barnes and McVey, most of the others wouldn't garner much support and are probably best left to the VC.

                  The Ultimate Quest poll from that era:

                  http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75568

                  Paints a better picture of who belongs. Dickey Pearce is the other guy from that generation who is in that company, but he fits better as a pioneer than a player as much of his peak was spent in pre-1871 baseball and he only had 7 years after 1871 anyway.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jjpm74 View Post
                    I'd also like to see the 1871 starting point. Barnes deserves consideration in the 19th century professional players subset. Not the early innovators of the game veterans committee subset.

                    On a different note, are you going with the 5% 15 year rule or is a player going to remain an eligible candidate permanently as long as they maintain at least 5% support throughout the mock elections?
                    The 15 year rule will remain and everyone eligible in the first election will be eligible for 15 years regardless of when they retired, provided they continue to meet 5%.

                    I'm basically going to adopt the BBWAA rules and apply them throughout history.


                    EDIT: So here is what I propose to do for the first election (1901):

                    - The 1901 ballot will be longer than originally planned, so in excess of 50 players, but not likely going over 60. This is in consideration of being more inclusive given the longer period.

                    - Eligibility will extend to a few notables going back to 1871, though most players from that early will be thrown to an imaginary VC as pioneers. If you believe someone from this period should be on the initial ballot, now is the time to state your case.

                    - The 10 year rule will be waived for the first election given the conditions of the early professional period, but the requirement will apply starting in 1902 for players retiring in 1897.

                    - All players eligible in the first election will be eligible for 15 years, regardless of when they retired.

                    - The 5% rule will be modified for the first election given the large number of candidates. Thus players receiving less than 5% in the first election will not be dropped, but in order to make it to the 1902 election, the player must receive at least one vote. The 5% rule will begin with the 1902 election.

                    Sound good?
                    Last edited by DoubleX; 04-26-2008, 11:15 AM.

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