1901 Mock Ballot Suggestions

[DoubleX]

In preparation for getting the 1901 election going in our progressive HoF project, I wanted to solicit help for finalizing the first ballot. To be eligible for the 1901 ballot, a player must have played at least 8 major league seasons after 1876 (this will become 10 starting in 1902), and have retired no later than 1896. Thus, eligible players in the first election will have retired between 1884-1896. Players retiring before 1884 will be considered by an imaginary VC under a pioneer/player distinction.

So far we have these 40 candidates, and I would prefer to have 50 at most.

Dan Brouthers - 1896 (appeared briefly again in 1904)
Dave Foutz - 1896
Arlie Latham - 1896 (appeared briefly again in 1899 and 1909)
Tommy McCarthy - 1896
Doggie Miller - 1896
Oyster Burns - 1895
Jack Glasscock - 1895
Pete Browning - 1894
John Ward - 1894
John Clarkson - 1894
Tony Mullane - 1894
Charlie Bennett - 1893
King Kelly - 1893
Henry Larkin - 1893
Jim O'Rourke - 1893 (appeared briefly again in 1904)
Harry Stovey - 1893
Bob Caruthers - 1893
Tim Keefe - 1893
George Gore - 1892
Ned Hanlon - 1892
Tip O'Neill - 1892
Hardy Richardson - 1892
Charlie Buffinton - 1892
Pud Galvin - 1892
Mickey Welch - 1892
Fred Dunlap - 1891
Paul Hines - 1891
Charley Radbourn - 1891
Dave Orr - 1890
Jack Rowe - 1890
Deacon White - 1890
Ned Williamson - 1890
Charley Jones - 1888
Ezra Sutton - 1888
Larry Corcoran - 1887
Bobby Mathews - 1887
Jim McCormick - 1887
Joe Start - 1886
Will White - 1886
Tommy Bond - 1884

[dgarza]

If you're really looking to get closer to 50 players, here are some suggestions for lesser candidates :

Tom York - 1885
Davy Force - 1886
George Bradley - 1888
Guy Hecker - 1890
Jim Whitney - 1890
Abner Dalrymple - 1891
John Reilly - 1891
Pop Snyder - 1891
Sam Wise - 1893
Charlie Comiskey - 1894
Elton Chamberlain - 1896

[Chadwick]

There's already such a huge number of electable guys listed that expanding the ballot size further will be counter productive.

[Paul Wendt]

for what it's worth

As consultant for the Ultimate Quest i listed for myself 128 players with careers centered in the 1890s and earlier. Fifty "retired" after 1885 to 1896. Your list comprises 38 of those plus Doggie Miller and Ned Hanlon. Here are the other twelve.

Jerry Denny
Yank Robinson
Abner Dalrymple
Fred Carroll
Jack Burdock
Pop Snyder
Guy Hecker
Jim Whitney
Silver Flint
Charlie Ferguson
Davy Force
Tom York

York, Force, and Whitney were on the final ballots for Ultimate Quest, round one. Dalrymple and Burdock were final cuts by the group.

I like York, Dalrymple, Force, and Snyder in different ways.

Bill James likes George Pinkney (not listed) and Fred Carroll.

dgarza named Wise and Reilly who make a better fifty in place of Carroll and Ferguson.

Hanlon and Comiskey are reasonable picks in their way, not mere players.

Beside Tommy Bond, seven players on my list "retired" after 1884. I am ignoring that year because the high demand for players brought so many old-timers back to the majors, some of them as player-managers.

Having looked at the IA/NA 1877-1880 statistics since I made the list of 128, the other interesting players are Fred Goldsmith, a dominating pitcher already in 1877 (three seasons); George Wood, a precocious batter (two seasons); and John O'Rourke (whatever happened to him?). At best, Goldsmith or Wood might belong in the top forty, and O'Rourke doesn't belong in the electoral conversation.

[leecemark]

--Why 1876 and not 1871? You are eliminating some very good candidates who would have 8 (or even 10) including the NA seasons, but don't qualify with 1876 as a starting point. Ross Barnes and Cal McVey I think are both amoung the top 20 19th century players, but aren't eligible based on the 1876 starting point.

[Freakshow]

Depending on your token appearances rule, here are others to consider.

Bill Hutchison – 1895 (6g, 40ip in 1897)
Buck Ewing – 1896 (1g, 2pa in 1897)
Adonis Terry – 1896 (1g, 8ip in 1897)

[jjpm74]

I'd also like to see the 1871 starting point. Barnes deserves consideration in the 19th century professional players subset. Not the early innovators of the game veterans committee subset.

On a different note, are you going with the 5% 15 year rule or is a player going to remain an eligible candidate permanently as long as they maintain at least 5% support throughout the mock elections?

[DoubleX]

Depending on your token appearances rule, here are others to consider.

Bill Hutchison – 1895 (6g, 40ip in 1897)
Buck Ewing – 1896 (1g, 2pa in 1897)
Adonis Terry – 1896 (1g, 8ip in 1897)

If they appeared in 1897, they'll first be eligible in 1902.

Mark, I'll consider adding McVey and Barnes. My preference had been to throw players from that period to an imaginary VC (unless someone wants to run a VC in conjunction with this), as I tend to view players from that period as more of pioneers and I believe that there should be a distinct cutoff anyway. But if there is a strong belief that those players should be included, I'll include them. If so, are there others from that period that should make it?

Paul, all the players you mentioned were on my extended list and some might make it. Are there any in particular you feel are more deserving of being on the ballot? Perhaps I'll consider having a larger ballot for the first election, knowing that many of the players will drop off from the 5% rule anyway.

[jjpm74]

If so, are there others from that period that should make it?

There is a large group of stars from that era and earlier, but with the exception of Barnes and McVey, most of the others wouldn't garner much support and are probably best left to the VC.

The Ultimate Quest poll from that era:

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=75568

Paints a better picture of who belongs. Dickey Pearce is the other guy from that generation who is in that company, but he fits better as a pioneer than a player as much of his peak was spent in pre-1871 baseball and he only had 7 years after 1871 anyway.

[DoubleX]

I'd also like to see the 1871 starting point. Barnes deserves consideration in the 19th century professional players subset. Not the early innovators of the game veterans committee subset.

On a different note, are you going with the 5% 15 year rule or is a player going to remain an eligible candidate permanently as long as they maintain at least 5% support throughout the mock elections?

The 15 year rule will remain and everyone eligible in the first election will be eligible for 15 years regardless of when they retired, provided they continue to meet 5%.

I'm basically going to adopt the BBWAA rules and apply them throughout history.


EDIT: So here is what I propose to do for the first election (1901):

- The 1901 ballot will be longer than originally planned, so in excess of 50 players, but not likely going over 60. This is in consideration of being more inclusive given the longer period.

- Eligibility will extend to a few notables going back to 1871, though most players from that early will be thrown to an imaginary VC as pioneers. If you believe someone from this period should be on the initial ballot, now is the time to state your case.

- The 10 year rule will be waived for the first election given the conditions of the early professional period, but the requirement will apply starting in 1902 for players retiring in 1897.

- All players eligible in the first election will be eligible for 15 years, regardless of when they retired.

- The 5% rule will be modified for the first election given the large number of candidates. Thus players receiving less than 5% in the first election will not be dropped, but in order to make it to the 1902 election, the player must receive at least one vote. The 5% rule will begin with the 1902 election.

Sound good?