The Ultimate Quest for Candidates: Round 1 – The 1980’s (part 2)

[Freakshow]

Welcome to the Ultimate Quest for Candidates! This thread has the 14th and final poll in the first round, choosing the best candidates for the Hall of Fame from the MLB stars of the late 1980’s/early 1990's. You will be asked to vote for your top SEVEN (7) players (out of 21); another thread with a companion poll is posted for the stars of the early/mid 1980's, where you are also asked to vote for your top SEVEN (7) players (out of 21). This decade has more candidates (42) than earlier decades because of expansion, as well as their recent vintage. None of these candidates have been eligible for the reformed HOF Veterans Committee, so there’s still a lot of work to do. The polls will close three weeks after they open.

I’m asking voters not to peek at the results of the voting until after they’ve cast their ballot. I would hope that voters are capable of independently assessing the candidates without worrying about whom the consensus is favoring.

We will be judging players by the same criteria that the Hall of Fame uses:

“voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game.”

So everything counts, their lifetime achievements on and off the field, along with their character and other intangibles.

[jalbright]

An ugly set. Except for the mandate to vote for seven, I would have only voted for 4: Clark, Raines, McGwire, and Belle. I don't support Belle and his short career, but he's close enough to merit a vote at this stage. I'll stick with McGwire unless new evidence against him emerges, and Clark and Raines are ones I definitely support. The other three I voted for are almost dart board selections for the three best among the rest. Ugh.

[dgarza]

The other three I voted for are almost dart board selections for the three best among the rest. Ugh.

If you picked Tony Phillips, then your dart went into the other room.
I still don't understand how he made the cut and Cecil Cooper, Dwight Gooden, etc. were left off. He sticks out like a sore thumb.

[jalbright]

If you picked Tony Phillips, then your dart went into the other room.
I still don't understand how he made the cut and Cecil Cooper, Dwight Gooden, etc. were left off. He sticks out like a sore thumb.

Tony hasn't yet gotten a vote, and my vote has been counted. Why did you mention this in connection with me? I've never voted for Phillips in these polls that I can recall.

[Freakshow]

An ugly set. Except for the mandate to vote for seven, I would have only voted for 4: Clark, Raines, McGwire, and Belle. I don't support Belle and his short career, but he's close enough to merit a vote at this stage. I'll stick with McGwire unless new evidence against him emerges, and Clark and Raines are ones I definitely support. The other three I voted for are almost dart board selections for the three best among the rest. Ugh.

Well, you've been here for these Round 1 polls...that's how it goes. In the 14 polls in this round you were asked to vote for 88 players, so in most of them the guys at the end of your ballot aren't very good candidates for the Hall. As I've said before, Round 1 is for weeding out the field, giving the boot to the weakest, getting our focus on the better candidates.

This group is a bit weaker than the early/mid 80's group, but they're stronger than some of the earlier decades' ballots.

As for dgarza on Phillips, when you give proper consideration to defense, durability and all-around value he starts looking really good. He's a hidden gem, so much so that Bill James didn't even manage to rank him at the right position.

[jjpm74]

This poll was perhaps the biggest letdown and thinnest field of the entire first round. The only candidates from this list I support are Lee Smith, and Tim Raines. Albert Belle was dominant for a short period, but doesn't make the HOF for me, but was one of the guys I voted for. Harold Baines, Will Clark, David Cone and Paul O'Neill were just filler. The part 1 80s thread had more players with some talent. These probably could have been 1 thread asking for 10 candidates or 2 threads asking for 5 each.

[Freakshow]

This poll was perhaps the biggest letdown and thinnest field of the entire first round.

Far from true. Utter nonsense.

This poll has four players in the Hall of Merit, plus another that's in the BBFHOF. In the Suburbs of Cooperstown draft they were taken at #5, #8, #10. #17, and #87.

Compare to the 1930's Round 1. One player, Ferrell, is in the HoM; he's also the only BBFHOF member. He was drafted #30 in the SOC. Others drafted high in the SOC from that decade were taken at #43, #55, #64 and #93. A few other Round 1 groups were also weaker than this late 80s/early 90s group.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

[Paul Wendt]

sparse up the middle

Expanding my past private comments about C-SS-2B:
The entire list of 49 was very weak up the middle with only 10 players at C-SS-2B-CF. Nine advanced and this half got only a weak trio: Fernandez, Phillips, and Butler. (And only Sandberg and Puckett are in the Hall of Fame, right?) The other half has Parrish, Trammell, Whitaker, Randolph, Murphy, and Lemon.

So it's rather boring.
But not weak. People are naturally but unfairly comparing it to the recent polls where (a) that includes several round twos, (b) the stronger decades were scheduled latest, which is most recently.

[dgarza]

Tony hasn't yet gotten a vote, and my vote has been counted. Why did you mention this in connection with me? I've never voted for Phillips in these polls that I can recall.

I din't mean you voted for Phillips. I used your quote as supporting reference to weak players.

[dgarza]

As for dgarza on Phillips, when you give proper consideration to defense, durability and all-around value he starts looking really good. He's a hidden gem, so much so that Bill James didn't even manage to rank him at the right position.

I feel that's pushing it.
Defense? His defensive record is spotty, all over the place
Durability? He averaged only 120 games per year
All-Around Value? He played more games in the OF than any other single position and his OPS+ is 109.
Not that he didn't have value, but not nearly enough that he belongs as an UQ candidate.
I think you're looking for reasons to include him.

[dgarza]

1. Mark McGwire
2. Albert Belle
3. Lee Smith
4. Bobby Bonilla
5. David Cone
6. Tim Raines
7. Jose Canseco

[dgarza]

Niether this nor the other 1980s poll is really all that weak.
Each of the 14 players I voted for I also support for the HOF.
I can't say that always has happened in previous UQ polls.

[leecemark]

--You must favor at least a 500 man HoF.

[jjpm74]

Far from true. Utter nonsense.

This poll has four players in the Hall of Merit, plus another that's in the BBFHOF. In the Suburbs of Cooperstown draft they were taken at #5, #8, #10. #17, and #87.

Compare to the 1930's Round 1. One player, Ferrell, is in the HoM; he's also the only BBFHOF member. He was drafted #30 in the SOC. Others drafted high in the SOC from that decade were taken at #43, #55, #64 and #93. A few other Round 1 groups were also weaker than this late 80s/early 90s group.

Do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

Do you have evidence to support your assertion that what I said is "utter nonsense"? That's a very strong claim on your part. I already stated who I actually support from this group (1 as a fringe candidate). Of the others, Albert Belle had a good peak and a very short career. That doesn't measure up for me.
McGwire=PEDs poster boy Baines=Career DH decent bat no glove Bonilla had a few decent years but never came close to putting up HOF numbers. Butler was never more than a solid position player. Canseco=PEDs poster boy. Joe Carter was an all star. Does that make him a HOFer? Will Clark's career and interpretation of that career depends on what type of HOF you support. Cone lacked longevity and had too many mediocre years. Chili Davis would make the HOF if it was expanded to 2000 players. Tony Fernandez had a few good years but no high peak to speak of. Mark Grace was a prospect that never lived up to his expectations. Hershiser had 1 good year. Martinez was a decent pitcher in a very weak pitchingh era. Paul O'Neil had some post season heroics as a Yankee but the type of career about 4000 other players have had. Tony Phillips was decent but not even in the top 30 at his position for most people. Tim Wallach had an average career. Matt Williams completes the trifecta of PEDs poster boys from that era.

[jjpm74]

One I forgot: Saberhagen. His career would have been great had he not taken a vacation every other year. To sum it up, guys I could see as potential round 2 discussion candidates from this group:

Belle, Clark, McGwire, Raines, Saberhagen, Smith

Guys I could see as potential round 2 discussion candidates from the other 80s group:

Dawson, Evans, Guidry, Hernandez, Mattingly, Morris, Murphy, Parrish, Quisenberry, Randolph, Rice, Stieb, Tramell, Whitaker

You're also right that the 30s poll was the weakest. I had forgotten about that pool of players. This is the second weakest.